things that are exaggerated

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by mystic7
Too little, too late, Whitey. I've fought this war 10 times already on this board. Notice how you can give your opinion and the people who disagree are the ones that start the name calling, but ultimately you will be blamed for starting a flame war.
In case I didn't make myself clear, I agree with you 100%. As for the happiness of the fish, like me I'm sure you consider them a display, not pets. Although they look pretty damn happy whenever I walk into the room!
Your turn, Emmitt. Sharpen your crayon.

You were warned several times today, Mystic, to change the nature of your posts, and your baiting of Emmitt. You both need to act like adults. You don't have much time to change. I would start now please.

 

[team2jndd]

hahaha. I want to start this by mentioning the fact that I am seventeen. I am embarassed for the rest of the people who value the information given on this board. You mention that the fish are brainless and without religion. This makes the mistreatment of them fair? Have you never seen a fish in fear? Have you witnessed a fish in pain or one that is suffering? It was once thought by people such as yourself that people could be thought inferior based on the color of their skin. Those people were also held captive in unfair conditions. Are you honestly going to tell me that was a fair generalization? Every living creature reguardless of what you happen to think, deserves the chance at the best life it can possibly obtain. I dont care if you have 100 healthy fish in a 5 gallon tank. The bottom line is that most people have not witnessed such results. Our goal as keepers of these animals is to provide the best suitable home we know how. Your carelessness towards the well being of these creatures in my opinion only displays the type of person you are. One day you will be worthless to somebody who holds your life in the palm of their hand. I hope that you are not surprised when they fail to show you the compassion that you have denied to so many of these animals.

 

[drewsta]

Originally Posted by team2jndd
hahaha. I want to start this by mentioning the fact that I am seventeen. I am embarassed for the rest of the people who value the information given on this board. You mention that the fish are brainless and without religion. This makes the mistreatment of them fair? Have you never seen a fish in fear? Have you witnessed a fish in pain or one that is suffering? It was once thought by people such as yourself that people could be thought inferior based on the color of their skin. Those people were also held captive in unfair conditions. Are you honestly going to tell me that was a fair generalization? Every living creature reguardless of what you happen to think, deserves the chance at the best life it can possibly obtain. I dont care if you have 100 healthy fish in a 5 gallon tank. The bottom line is that most people have not witnessed such results. Our goal as keepers of these animals is to provide the best suitable home we know how. Your carelessness towards the well being of these creatures in my opinion only displays the type of person you are. One day you will be worthless to somebody who holds your life in the palm of their hand. I hope that you are not surprised when they fail to show you the compassion that you have denied to so many of these animals.

Agreed and well said except I don't believe in an EYE FOR AN EYE as you state in your last two statements people are only judged by one being and we are not him. People should do what they can to make their pets happy, and fish DO have brains! If you believe people shouldn't own pets get off this board and join PETA

 

[team2jndd]

Oh and to the one who said that a person can be happy in a 6x6 cell for 50 years. The jail reference was merely used as an example to express my point to the small minded individual who started this thread. The one who stated that animals dont deserve a fair chance at a good life because they dont have our religion or intelect. Although, as I am becoming aware, not all humans have such intellect either. I will guarentee you the only inmates that would prefer to be held captive as opposed to an unlimited freedom only do so in fear of what could happen to them on the outside. However, if a man would be perfectly happy inside a jail cell for the rest of his life it all comes down to his own set of morals. Human beings base their actions on emotional predispositions. This is what we call a set of morals. As has become perfectly obvious in this thread, everybodys set of morals is different. You express the fact that you feel a dependance on religion is an important aspect of what makes one human. You then go on to say that not all gods creatures deserve the same chance at life because you think they look pretty in your living room? I dont care what your reply to me may hold because there is nothing you can say to make me feel you are worth the time. Basically, im trying to say not to argue with me because every comment you have made only makes me feel more embarassed for you. You may be one of the most ignorant human beings I have ever met. Do yourself a favor and buy a journal. Everytime you feel words coming to your mouth that you want to express to the world, write it down. Save us all the agony of listening to your arogance. Then when you have finally written down enough wasted thoughts, publish it and try to sell it. See how many people actually waste their money on your ideas. I for one am done with you because you have already wasted my time and as we all know time is money.

 

[team2jndd]

And i dont feel people shouldnt own pets. Although it creates a huge moral dilemma that I dont feel like getting into about what makes us so special that we should be able to "own" another creature. I am a pet owner and I feel that having a pet is fine as long as you are able to understand the responsibility it holds. I am not a religious person so I am deffinately not preaching here. However, mother nature has been housing these creatures for far longer than our entire species has existed. If you need a humbling experience on mother natures power do a google search on hurricane katrina. Nobody can recreate mother nature but it is our responsibility to provide the best posible replica we can manage. There is no excuse to allow a less than appropriate home for these animals simply because of the philosophy, "hey, it works."

 

[reefreak29]

oh boy this discussion can go forever,is it humane to leave your dog at home while your at work for ten hours without the ability to take a leak,is it humane to keep a horse in a stable when they can be enjoying the open land,my gosh it can go on and on and on ,listen u paid for them do what u want it doesnt matter ,if u want to put a tang in a 5 gallon tank so be it, but i think what im doing is a good deed to the fish , im giving them a peacfull enviroment with a garenteed food supply and there also garenteed to not get eaten by bigger fish , i think im doing them a favor , plus i get to enjot them and watch them grow.

 

[surfinusa]

Originally Posted by whitey_028
Some people think that they cant have what they want because "they dont have the right lights" or "my tank isn't big enough to have that fish". My yellow tang,2 wrasses, 2 clowns,2 hippos had been doing fine in a 39 gallon for years, my leathers and clams have been doing fine in my 55 gallon for years under 2 1/2 watts per gallon pc for years. I am sorry and know im going to get flamed on this post but i dont care. I just want the new hobbyist to know that this is not rocket science and everything on these post are mostly opinions of what you should have. Also water changed dont have to be done every freakin week. Once the tank is established i have gone for months on my reef tank.
just a few words
you are crazy

 

[team2jndd]

hahahaha wow now i regret writing such long entries when you summed it up so well with just a few words. and reeffreak you cant watch them grow when there is no room to grow.

 

[theappe]

I think that the bottom line is like ^ said. Its your fish and animals and you do as you please. Your money. If you want to take advice then ask for it, if not then dont. Simple as that. Hey if it works for you then :cheer: thats my 2cent.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Well I guess I'll jump in here. I think we have strayed from the original post and have resorted to demoralizing someone because they see things differently. I myself am absolutely not a "Tree Hugger" By no means. Heck, I shoot coyotes, bobcats fox, and others for their fur to hang in my house. Right over my setup if I want. What gives me the right? ??? Being a human being does. Top of the chain bro. Also, if we dont control the population we will be overun by these and a whole slew of problems. So, I am doing you and you're family a favor doing this. Wheather you like it or not. Ever had a coyote problem around you're place? Now, I do love my fish and my dogs, They are kept in a small kennel while we work most of the time. And they LOVE their cages. They even lay in them when were home, its their safe haven. Some people would say this is cruel, my dogs dont... Also my dogs are inherently better off by being kept with this household of humans. They donthave to hunt for food, be eaten by others, try to survive in bad weather, and they give and recieve lots of love. My avatar is my dog and I love her. And she loves me back. Do you're fish love you????? How can you tell. Just wandering because while I think we should all have a set of morals that would allow us to never harm a living thing, I also believe the grass is alive and I gotta mow it and it probably hurts the grass. How do you frag an sps Cut it, break it, glue it? Does it feel this? Who knows. I dont agree with the original poster that this should be normal practice but.... he owns them, he can do as he pleases with them and he can share his experience without being flamed. I do agree with the water changes though. I have done 1 thats right 1 since I cycled and that was 2 months after my cycle. My levels are 0 ammo, 0 trites, 0 trates, 0 phosphate, ph 8.4, calcium 460. Why?

 

[reefreak29]

Originally Posted by team2jndd
hahahaha wow now i regret writing such long entries when you summed it up so well with just a few words. and reeffreak you cant watch them grow when there is no room to grow.
your right but i can in my tank

 

[120reefer]

https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/data/smilies/rotfl.gif[/img] No but seriously, i would imagine that you have excellent filtration, and a low bioload. A friend of mine had the same thing... would do one water change like every 4-6 weeks. He had a 125 reef with just 1 yellow tang, 1 flame angel, and one blenny... thats it, plus corals, plenty of LR and LS

It's a shame he had to sell due to college... it was a beautiful tank

 

[team2jndd]

ok first off the highest population of any mammal on the planet in terms of a single species are humans so if you want to control a population that is ruining the planet by all means do so. second of all mowing grass does actually keep it healthy if you have ever noticed a nice green freshly mowed lawn when compared to one that isnt mowed and well kept. And of course you can do what you want and nobody will stop you. If that is what you want to do than by all means do it. I just find it humorous to watch people who can watch a creature like a fish be mistreated and its ok but be bothered by a dog who is mistreated because the dog is cuter. I think it just shows the shallowness of ones emotions.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by 120reefer
Probably because you didn't slam 3 tangs and 4 others into a little 39 gal

No but seriously, i would imagine that you have excellent filtration, and a low bioload. A friend of mine had the same thing... would do one water change like every 4-6 weeks. He had a 125 reef with just 1 yellow tang, 1 flame angel, and one blenny... thats it, plus corals, plenty of LR and LS

It's a shame he had to sell due to college... it was a beautiful tank

Exactly

 

[maxalmon]

Part of why I enjoy this hobby is that I take great personal pride in how I selected all my equipment and getting a good home ready for my corals and a few fish. It took me months to read about everything and make informed decisions on the type of system I was going to set up.
My goal was to mimic as close as possible a natural setting, I gave up on certain types of corals & fish because my tank size is only 75g. Not really into putting the fish on display like a trophy, I actually care that they are taken care of. I'm neurotic about my water quality. I moved from LA because of the smog, just didn't like the quality of my surroundings.
I guess what bothers me the most is that some people have an emptyness about them, they feel that their personal wants or needs should override another living creatures. We have a choice, provide a safe and comfortable home, same as we do for our family.

 

[ryanhayes9]

look if thats what he wants to don then let him. but when hte tang has ich and the tanks crasing dont come to us!

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by team2jndd
ok first off the highest population of any mammal on the planet in terms of a single species are humans so if you want to control a population that is ruining the planet by all means do so. second of all mowing grass does actually keep it healthy if you have ever noticed a nice green freshly mowed lawn when compared to one that isnt mowed and well kept. And of course you can do what you want and nobody will stop you. If that is what you want to do than by all means do it. I just find it humorous to watch people who can watch a creature like a fish be mistreated and its ok but be bothered by a dog who is mistreated because the dog is cuter. I think it just shows the shallowness of ones emotions.

The grass looks healthier when mowed. But it is never allow to propagate and flourish as it would in the wild. But does it HURT when you cut it? How can you be inhuman to something that doesn't feel? Do plants feel? I heard of a study that indicted they do at least react to cutting or other types of what would seem to be painful. Do i believe it? Not really? Could it be? Might be. And
I think we ought to control the human population, I nkow some i'd like to start with.
My best friends wife rescued some kittens once. The mother was a stray and abandoned them. She felt she was doing the right thing. So she started feeding them. They grew and are now strays themselves.Probably breeding. The human thing to have done would have been to let the kittens expire,nature decided their fate. When the mother abandoned them. She could have given the kittens away wich would have been an even better choice but ONLY if they had been fixed FIRST. Where do we draw the line?

 

[ophiura]

Look, here's the deal.
There are people in this hobby who see these animals as decor. That's all. Its kinda strange to me; maybe a lot of money to blow...but that is how they see it. No argument, debate, name calling, philosophical discussions, etc will change that. You can be logical, illogical, whatever...not going to change. They are welcome to their ideas. And many people who are here...maybe the majority, will look at what is written and not agree and not follow. People who are inclined to agree - well - so be it. I suspect they may lose money, but there is no point in arguing because their mindset is fixed.
There are people who are on the other end of the spectrum. Who buy tank raised livestock, who keep very low bioload systems.
Many of us are somewhere in the middle, striving to do what is best for our animals once we are made aware of their needs. This has nothing to do with being a "tree hugger bleeding heart." That is where I am personally, and I am a right wing wacko. If I see my fish are stunted, or my animals dying, I try to learn why and do what I can to change that. Maybe I learn never to try something again. I come and share that opinion here, as do many of you. And I think the majority of people who come to these boards are open to this discussion and learning experience and you don't have to worry about what advice they will follow.
I believe that we have an obligation to care for animals that are in tanks because of our demand for them. Especially because of the fact that they were removed from the wild for this hobby. I don't get pleasure from stunted or cramped fish. Maybe others do. So be it. If there was no minimum care for animals, we wouldn't have the humane society and SPCA and animal cruelty laws. It just hasn't been extended to fish yet.
But one end will not change the far other end of the spectrum, either way. So I would basically ask that people stop responding by trying to make philosophical - or more "heated" points. Nothing will change this opinion. Please stop any name calling or accusations. :happyfish

 

[monalisa]

Originally Posted by whitey_028
He came from the billion gallon oceon like it makes that big of a difference after hes been stunned by dynamite. So where is the line drawn for the humane issue? do we all stop having fish tanks becasue its inhumane? The whole reason for this thread was to have hobbyist ENJOY their tanks and not worry about all the tree hugging issues that go with it. Its all common sense. Im not saying to put 20 fish in a beta bowl either.Just saying use common sense and good judgement on what works for the idividual.

I smell a troll...

 

[moby]

On a lighter note,
This whole debate reminds me of something my grandad told me once,
"You can't waste your time trying to teach a pig to play the fiddle, it just frustrates you and annoys the pig!"

JMO, but I think that old guy knew a thing or two.
Moby