This is why I H A T E partisan politics...

uneverno

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/320#post_3503837

Deuteronomy 24:5

When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house
Leviticus 11:19.
mhm
What if she found an uncleanness in him. What is her recourse?
 

uneverno

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/360#post_3503985
Don't know, Isn't relevant to the discussion. Flower would probably know the answer if it's in the scriptures.
What you're describing is essentially sharia law. Or pentateuch law. Islam and Judaism are, after all, the same religion separated by Moses and Aaron. And a common language group known as Semitic.
It's a +3500 year old sibling rivalry.
Can we grow up already?
 

uneverno

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/360#post_3503991
Separated by moses and aaron?
Yes.
Read your history. Why did Aaron disappear from the bible? Because he picked the wrong side.
It goes back further than that to Jacob and Isaac or Cain and Abel, but those stories make even less sense.
"The greatest spoil of war is the writing of its history"
Napoleon
See, Napoleon understood what mattered - the truth belongs to who is left to tell it.
Accuracy is irrelevant.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by uneverno http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/360#post_3503992
Yes.
Read your history. Why did Aaron disappear from the bible? Because he picked the wrong side.
It goes back further than that to Jacob and Isaac or Cain and Abel, but those stories make even less sense.
"The greatest spoil of war is the writing of its history"
Napoleon
See, he understood what mattered - the truth belongs to who is left to tell it.
Accuracy is irrelevant.
Ishmael
 

darthtang aw

Active Member

I don't understand it because you play this inane 20 Questions guessing game instead of simply stating your position. You answer a question with a question, or put this subjective statement out where I'm supposed to be some psychic and read your mind.
Shooting someone is not the same as an abortion. Plain and simple.
So the only issue Pro Lifers have with abortion is the "government involvement"? The government would've never had to get involved if the religious fanatics didn't make it a "moral" issue, or try bringing God into the equation. Government funding to Planned Parenthood isn't the only place that organization obtains funds. I suppose you'd prefer the women would go back to the pre Roe v. Wade days where abortions were performed in some unsanitary back room with an inexperienced individual, or better yet, a woman stuffing a coat hanger up her yahoo to perform the abortion herself. What happened to the kids? The majority of them were aborted, or women found other means to cause their bodies to have a miscarriage. Never bothered to look up the statistics. Probably not many out there because there weren't required records obtained like you get from Planned Parenthood. The funding for that organization is miniscule in comparison to a multitude of other pork-barreled legislation. Probably cost each taxpayer $2 in taxes, if that.
Yopu're joking right? Remember, I'm Pro Choice. You're the one advocating we force these women to not be allowed to get an abortion for an unwanted baby, not me.
The way I see it, it's moot point anyways. Women have more choices today besides abortion to terminate a pregnancy, even before it starts. Just make the Day After Pill available over the counter and accessible to anyone who feels they need it, and the problem is solved.
A mentor of mine once told me, if you can't seem to get the right answer the wrong question has been asked.
You have in a round about way reached the right answer.
At this stage in science abortion is no longer needed except in rare cases. The situation could have been avoided easily enough with todays modern medicine.
Should it be legislated on the federal level?This is what I disagree with. If a state or municipality wants to legislate it, i personally believe it is a state issue. not a federal issue. The feds use it for votes. and it clouds judgement.
Some people only vote because of this one issue...and it has led this country down a path of no return. Society is inheriantly selfish. Myself, You, all of us. We look out for ourselves first. Thus we vote this way. Abortion is a prime example of this. "It is my body". This single issue has led us down this political path of selfishness and "I want more".
The back alley abortion accounted for 2% of all abortions a few years before Roe V Wade. Most of these procedures were still done in doctors offices...in states that allowed it. Hence the low death rate from back alley abortions.
Every issue has turned into a selfish issue ever since this ruling. Taxes, Healthcare, abortion, Immigration....Our country no longer looks at issues as to what is best for the country as a whole but what is best for the individual in the country.
We only need to look so far as the current heathcare bill and you can see what I mean. To decrease the amount of people uninsured by a small percentage we are sacrificing the greater majority of those that are insured in terms of cost. I read an article today, those that are above the line to qualify for exchanges most likely will see their insurance rate almost double in the next couple years. Aetna themselves have already said people can expect to see this from this provider. 5 major medical research and manufacturing companies will be put into the red due to the tax increases...three have announced layoffs just to remain viable....
Why do I mention this when we were discussing abortion? Because as I stated, I believe this single issue was what started the selfish mentallity in this country. Most citizens hide their selfishness behind "causes'.
Here is a question. ...would you trade the "right" to have an abortion to give gays and lesbians the "right" to marry? Which right is more important?
 

acrylic51

Active Member
Darth...If you believe the feds shouldn't regulate abortion, then why should it be a state or municipal issue to regulate.....That's a personal choice, no governing body should decide squat like that for anyone......The crap about the insurance companies laying off.....BS it's all about profit to them.....
As far as your question on the right to abortion or gay marriages......Who cares.....if whoever doesn't like it so be it.....As long as it's not personally affecting "YOU" then why worry about what the Smiths are doing next door......
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
It would be best to leave government out of medical and family concerns.
A women is going to have an abortion if she wants it, weather it is legal or not. Women have been having abortions since ancient times.
I think it is important for people not to think that they are just getting rid of some cells, just like women do monthly anyway, so its not a big deal. Abortion is a big deal. It shouldn't be a form of birth control. Men and women should be taught as children to grow to be responsible adults. But letting government decide about such things is probably not the best thing to do. If Row vs Wade is reversed, what will happen? Women will return to getting abortions in back allies, doing it themselves, etc.
I don't know what the answer is for society at large. I only know what my own decision would be.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Because it is at state level that aDoption is primarily funded, the care of the children until adoption and so on. The fed currently provides some but only in recent years. by switching it to states the state would collectively take on the cost burden to uncared for children. Food stamps etc. if the state population is against abortion their state taxes are collected from them to care for them. The same goes for those states whose population supports it. Their funds and tax dollars are spent that way to subsidize the abortions. This way if a person feels so strongly against this practice for religious reasons or what not. They can follow their faith to a differen state. If a person needs an abortion they can drive or take a bus a couple hundred miles for less than 69 dollars on greyhound and still receive one. There issue solved.
I ask again between the two " rights" which would you prefer.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Adoptions of newborns is not funded by states. And women are not supported by the state during pregnancies except via welfare--which is available to them whether they are giving up their child or not. By and large adoptions are privately arranged between individuals, through the court, or through private adoption agencies. The cost of the adoption falls on the individuals adopting, not the state. The only time the state would get involved in any adoption process is when abuse or neglect occurs and the child goes through the foster care system as a result of abuse. Dollars from states for adoptions don't happen. There may be some federal funding filtered to private adoption agencies through states, but that's it.
Row vs Wade is not going to be overturned in any sort of foreseeable future.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Adoptions of newborns is not funded by states.  And women are not supported by the state during pregnancies except via welfare--which is available to them whether they are giving up their child or not.    By and large adoptions are privately arranged between individuals, through the court,  or through private adoption agencies. The cost of the adoption falls on the individuals adopting, not the state.  The  only time the state would get involved in any adoption process is when abuse or neglect occurs and the child goes through the foster care system as a result of abuse.   Dollars from states for adoptions don't happen.  There may be some federal funding filtered to private adoption agencies through states, but that's it. 
Row vs Wade is not going to be overturned in any sort of foreseeable future.
Correction, I meant foster homes.
But select states do have funding for adoption based on criteria.
http://www.childwelfare.gov/adoption/adopt_assistance/
I agree Roe V wade will NEVER be overturned.But I understand why people vote based off it.
For those against it, if a politician has what in their view is a disregard for human life, how can they trust them to run the country. My Father is a faith bearing man. But the abortion view to him is not a religious issue, it is a character/perception issue. One does not need to be religious to be pro-life.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I agree. Personally, I am pro-life, but not based on a religious belief. However, if you are raised with Christian-Judeo moral center, then that is another story. In that respect, you can say that most pro-lifers come from that perspective. I still don't believe that governments need to be involved in this though. When government gets involved you get laws like we have now in FLA where women are compelled to take a sonogram as a pre-requisite to abortion. This is the political gangsters that attempt to circumvent the existing law just because it gains them votes back home. That is just government gone amok, in my view. Governments run amorally and incompetently for the most part, so why have them involved with such an issue!
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
I agree.  Personally, I am pro-life, but not based on a religious belief.  However, if you are raised with Christian-Judeo moral center, then that is another story.  In that respect, you can say that most pro-lifers come from that perspective.  I still don't believe that governments need to be involved in this though.  When government gets involved you get laws like we have now in FLA where women are compelled to take a sonogram as a pre-requisite to abortion.  This is the political gangsters that attempt to circumvent the existing law just because it gains them votes back home.   That is just government gone amok, in my view.  Governments run amorally and incompetently for the most part, so why have them involved with such an issue!
in our system, whose fault is it for the amoral and incompetant operation of our federal government?
 

reefraff

Active Member
If someone were to ask my advice I would move heaven and earth to try to change their mind about an abortion unless it were for health reasons. But when it comes right down to it I don't think anyone should be forced to have a child.
I would be OK with a woman having to be shown pictures of what a 6 week old and 3 month old fetus looks like but making them have a sonogram is absurd. I also think abortion providers should have to provide info on groups that offer alternatives, Adoption, financial aid etc. No propaganda, just basic info on assistance that might be available should a woman not want to end the pregnancy.
 

bionicarm

Active Member

A mentor of mine once told me, if you can't seem to get the right answer the wrong question has been asked.
You have in a round about way reached the right answer.
At this stage in science abortion is no longer needed except in rare cases. The situation could have been avoided easily enough with todays modern medicine.
Should it be legislated on the federal level?This is what I disagree with. If a state or municipality wants to legislate it, i personally believe it is a state issue. not a federal issue. The feds use it for votes. and it clouds judgement.
Some people only vote because of this one issue...and it has led this country down a path of no return. Society is inheriantly selfish. Myself, You, all of us. We look out for ourselves first. Thus we vote this way. Abortion is a prime example of this. "It is my body". This single issue has led us down this political path of selfishness and "I want more".
The back alley abortion accounted for 2% of all abortions a few years before Roe V Wade. Most of these procedures were still done in doctors offices...in states that allowed it. Hence the low death rate from back alley abortions.
Every issue has turned into a selfish issue ever since this ruling. Taxes, Healthcare, abortion, Immigration....Our country no longer looks at issues as to what is best for the country as a whole but what is best for the individual in the country.
We only need to look so far as the current heathcare bill and you can see what I mean. To decrease the amount of people uninsured by a small percentage we are sacrificing the greater majority of those that are insured in terms of cost. I read an article today, those that are above the line to qualify for exchanges most likely will see their insurance rate almost double in the next couple years. Aetna themselves have already said people can expect to see this from this provider. 5 major medical research and manufacturing companies will be put into the red due to the tax increases...three have announced layoffs just to remain viable....
Why do I mention this when we were discussing abortion? Because as I stated, I believe this single issue was what started the selfish mentallity in this country. Most citizens hide their selfishness behind "causes'.
Here is a question. ...would you trade the "right" to have an abortion to give gays and lesbians the "right" to marry? Which right is more important?
They're equally important. Both have their merits and justfications. Neither should be "traded" for another. Both are inidivual rights. Neither should be determined or dictated by societal rules.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I would agree with everything you said, reef, except forcing a woman to view anything. Forcing non-criminal human beings in this country to do something is just wrong. Should a morbidly obese child be forced to view pictures of dead people who have died due to their bad eating habits?
Its not 1900 where you might find some women who don't even know how they got pregnant. Nowadays, we are taught the whole process in school early on (jr. high and even 5th grade). Women don't need to be compelled to view pictures of unborn babies. Should providers have to provide counseling, yes, of course! Aren't pregnant women who are going to have their kid get counseling at the doctor's office? Any serious medical issue requires the provider to provide some counseling and should include details about all the options.
Darth, we all know that power corrupts. And that is where the politicians are--in a position of power over all of us. Conservatives should stand by the principals which started this country and not delve in every facet of everyone's life trying to legislate morality. Everyone excepts the necessity to deal with basic human laws such as convicting murderers and rapists, protecting children from abuse. But the lid on that power has to be drawn otherwise we might as well live like the Germans during the Nazi era.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member

Darth, we all know that power corrupts.  And that is where the politicians are--in a position of power over all of us.   Conservatives should stand by the principals which started this country and not delve in every facet of everyone's life trying to legislate morality.  Everyone excepts the necessity to deal with basic human laws such as convicting murderers and rapists, protecting children from abuse.  But the lid on that power has to be drawn otherwise we might as well live like the Germans during the Nazi era.
I agree..to a degree. If murder was legalized..would the murder rate go up or stay the same? As I stated before, morality is basically what all laws cover.
Going back to my other question...how do Politicians gain and retain their power?
 

darthtang aw

Active Member

They're equally important. Both have their merits and justfications. Neither should be "traded" for another. Both are inidivual rights. Neither should be determined or dictated by societal rules.
Let me ask it a different way. Would you trade the second amendment for either one of these two issues becoming a constitutional amendment?
 
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