This is why I H A T E partisan politics...

beth

beth

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/40#post_3501840
There were a lot of reasons to go into Iraq. Not sure the others were worth a ground invasion. Not sure we would have ever known about the level of corruption in the UN oil for food program without invading but was that worth all the American lives? It would have been if we had done something about the UN but seeing as how we still kiss their butt...
I hear this all the time from conservatives. However, you know as well as I that figuring out a reason to go to war after the fact, because the first reason was untrue, just doesn't cut it.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/60#post_3501856
I hear this all the time from conservatives. However, you know as well as I that figuring out a reason to go to war after the fact, because the first reason was untrue, just doesn't cut it.
They had a good reason for going in. Just turns out Iraq was able to dispose of the WMD without anyone knowing about it. Bush had me until he said Knowing what I know today I would have still invaded. Now had we used the information we discovered to clean up the UN a case could be made it was worth it. That isn't coming up with a reason to go to war after the fact, it's looking for a silver lining.
 
beth

beth

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What reason exactly did we have for going to war with Iraq aside from the WMD excuse?
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/60#post_3501857
They had a good reason for going in. Just turns out Iraq was able to dispose of the WMD without anyone knowing about it. Bush had me until he said Knowing what I know today I would have still invaded. Now had we used the information we discovered to clean up the UN a case could be made it was worth it. That isn't coming up with a reason to go to war after the fact, it's looking for a silver lining.
Using that logic, we'd have reasons to start a war with Iran or North Korea....
 
beth

beth

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Why didn't the UN declare war on Iraq then? Why was that a reason given to the American people for going to war. We know the reason? UN violations would not fly with US citizens as a reason to go to war.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

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Why didn't the UN declare war on Iraq then?  Why was that  a reason given to the American people for going to war.  We know the reason?  UN violations would not fly with US citizens as a reason to go to war.
Does the UN declare war?
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/60#post_3501881
We had legal cause to go into Iraq. As far as I know NK hasn't violated the armistice.
They haven't? They're blatently building facilities that are capable of handling nuclear devices. They've pretty much stated they have the capability of building a nuclear device that could strike short-range targets (i.e Japna and US West Coast). The difference with North Korea is, if you tick that maniac off, he'll push the button.
 
beth

beth

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/60#post_3501886
Does the UN declare war?
That they don't didn't seem to matter in Libya, right?
The point is, the Bush Adm was itching to go to war, and that is why we went to Iraq. USA world police. Anybody ever see that old movie, The Day the Earth Stood Still. The alien was an intergalactic police who destroys any world that steps out of line. That is who we are now.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/60#post_3501882
Why didn't the UN declare war on Iraq then? Why was that a reason given to the American people for going to war. We know the reason? UN violations would not fly with US citizens as a reason to go to war.
UN violations gave us the legal right. Had one of our jets been shot down that probably would have been enough.
Keep in mind most members of Congress believed Iraq still had their WMD's and based the belief on intelligence from both the Clinton and Bush administrations
Iraq was known by BOTH the Clinton and Bush administration to have had contacts with Al Qaeda
Iraq was openly supporting Palestinian terrorists
In addition both US and Russian intelligence agencies had information that Iraq was interested in learning ways they could make terrorist style attacks on US interests both inside and outside the country
Knowing what we did back then Bush made the right decision.
 
reefraff

reefraff

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/60#post_3501906
They haven't? They're blatently building facilities that are capable of handling nuclear devices. They've pretty much stated they have the capability of building a nuclear device that could strike short-range targets (i.e Japna and US West Coast). The difference with North Korea is, if you tick that maniac off, he'll push the button.
Where in the Armistice agreement are they barred from developing nuclear weapons?
 
beth

beth

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Its funny you guys keep bringing up UN violations and yet the UN did not support the war in Iraq. Bush had to cajole eastern European countries to join the "Coalition of the Willing" (as opposed to the unwilling) which in and of itself tells the world that the the US war in Iraq was not approved by the UN. Why weren't the UN inspectors allowed to continue as the UN wished (since the so-called UN violations occurred, then it should be the UN deciding what took place next). Instead, the Bush administration called it quits and started Shock and Awe.
I am convinced that if Bush intended to move on NK and Iran as well, but the Iraq War was so unpopular, and the WMD was non-existent, that Americans would support no further wars. Republicans lost to Obama, twice, because the Republican message is that "we love war".
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/60#post_3501928
Its funny you guys keep bringing up UN violations and yet the UN did not support the war in Iraq. Bush had to cajole eastern European countries to join the "Coalition of the Willing" (as opposed to the unwilling) which in and of itself tells the world that the the US war in Iraq was not approved by the UN. Why weren't the UN inspectors allowed to continue as the UN wished (since the so-called UN violations occurred, then it should be the UN deciding what took place next). Instead, the Bush administration called it quits and started Shock and Awe.
I am convinced that if Bush intended to move on NK and Iran as well, but the Iraq War was so unpopular, and the WMD was non-existent, that Americans would support no further wars. Republicans lost to Obama, twice, because the Republican message is that "we love war".
UN sanctions? I am talking about cease fire violations.
I believe Bush thought once we hit Iraq Iran and NK would pull back.
 
beth

beth

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reefraff, come on now. UN Resolution 1441 outlined all the breaches of the Iraqi government under S. Hussein, which included WMD, production of bio weapons, etc. This was a UN Resolution, not a USA Resolution. The resolution did not authorize war if violated. Saddam said he'd allow weapons inspectors back into the country, and the UN specifically decided that further breaches would not automatically result in war but that UN would decide what further action needed to occur. The UN decides about UN resolution violations. It was not up to the USA to act on its own.
When Bush saw that the UN was not going to sanction military consequence, he proceeded with Iraq war along with Britain--without the UN. Basically taking it upon itself to do what he wanted to do outside of the UN.
The United States had no reason to independently seek war against Iraq. And the United States was not supposed to act on UN resolution violations on its own. And now we know that the WMD, from the mouths of our own inspectors, were actually destroyed in 1991, so our crazed reason to go to war was invalid.
What exactly did we gain from the war in Iraq? We certainly didn't get any oil out of it. Oh, I know. We gained a downward spiral on the course of insurmountable debt. Conservatives gained Obama for 8 years. Good stuff, huh?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/393539/this-is-why-i-h-a-t-e-partisan-politics/60#post_3502013
reefraff, come on now. UN Resolution 1441 outlined all the breaches of the Iraqi government under S. Hussein, which included WMD, production of bio weapons, etc. This was a UN Resolution, not a USA Resolution. The resolution did not authorize war if violated. Saddam said he'd allow weapons inspectors back into the country, and the UN specifically decided that further breaches would not automatically result in war but that UN would decide what further action needed to occur. The UN decides about UN resolution violations. It was not up to the USA to act on its own.
When Bush saw that the UN was not going to sanction military consequence, he proceeded with Iraq war along with Britain--without the UN. Basically taking it upon itself to do what he wanted to do outside of the UN.
The United States had no reason to independently seek war against Iraq. And the United States was not supposed to act on UN resolution violations on its own. And now we know that the WMD, from the mouths of our own inspectors, were actually destroyed in 1991, so our crazed reason to go to war was invalid.
What exactly did we gain from the war in Iraq? We certainly didn't get any oil out of it. Oh, I know. We gained a downward spiral on the course of insurmountable debt. Conservatives gained Obama for 8 years. Good stuff, huh?
The United States of America agreed to cease fire terms with Iraq. That gave the US the legal right to resume military action under international law when Iraq repeatedly violated the terms of the cease fire. Thats how we could go back to fighting without declaring war or having the UN say yes you may.
Knowing what I know now if I were prez I would have blown the hell out if Iraq's oil infrastructure. It was already so antiquated a few well placed air strikes could have brought Iraq to their knees within months. Unfortunately our human intelligence assets were so poor we didn't know that or that Iraq had somehow disposed of VX gas stocks that it is taking us decades to dispose of.
Voter stupidity is what gave us 0bama. That boob never should have won the Democrat primary but thats another topic LOL!.
 
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