To BB or not to BB..

[squidd]

I agree as well...(no really)....
Back to my first post...
Not because of the dangers of aledged "crashing" ..but because of the complex nature of setting one up, stocking and maintaining one "correctly"....
I "am" more of a DIY guy and really wasn't into the bugs and worms thing or the need to "establish and maintain" a "sepeate mini ecosystem" (which is cool, if your into that sort of thing)
The ....
Good Luck with the "unbiased" opinions...(kind of an oxymoron, don't you think... )
Anyway...BB rocks..It's the only way to go...
Was more in referenc to the "UN-BIASED opinions Cory Herb was looking for....("Obviously didn't happen")...

Ther ARE many ways to run a successful tank ....and Many Ways to SCREW ONE UP...
So it is important for the "potential" Reefer to get to get several "opinions" and then MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS on which suits them best, which they are most "comfortable" with, which they feel they can "build and maintain"etc...

 

[squidd]

What "works" for me may not work for you...and what work for you may not work for annother person..and Vice-Versa..
(Actually, I'm more into the "Vice" than the "Versa"... ..where some one else may see the poetry in the "Versa"...)
There REALLY is NO "BEST WAY" to run your system...
ALL have "pros" and ALL have "cons"....most of which come from "user error"....
Ever hear the term ..."Stupid Computer"..???? :hilarious

 

[squidd]

Originally posted by Beth
... Personally, for me I don't want to vaccum and siphon. I have done that for years with all the different tanks I had and being able have a tank that virtually runs itself was a cool idea for me...

So, are you saying you don't do water changes "anyway"...??
(I'm sure you do Beth... And until I work the "bugs" out of automatic WCs I will as well...I just use the "oppertunity" to grab the deitrus as well...)

 

[iwantacans]

Originally posted by ReefNut
Thanks for the run down Squidd. I personally like the idea of a BB in the display tank. The only problem I see is if debris started to collect somewhere under the rocks.

rocks elevated partially on a pvc rack. lots of flow, and siphon once a week takes all of 10 min to do.... top back off clean the skimmer, and bam, your done....

 

[pyro]

hmmmm, just an intresting thought to say it all works...
It wasn't a reef... but my dad had a rock solid fish only tank when I was younger. Live rock wasn't really around yet, and he used crushed coral. Worked for about 5 years before a trigger knocked his heater off a suction cup and it fell and broke, frying everything but the snowflake eel... which "jumped ship" a week later.
anyways, saw myricle mud up there... the reason they ask you to replace it is because it looses all of its nutrients and desolves. You don't relly need to replace it, just add more. I have the stuff in mine I just setup and my levels are already rock solid... I have my doubts about the stuff... but we'll see :thinking:

 

[acrylic51]

Originally posted by Beth
Basically, DSBs are excellent natural nitrate removers and the depth of the sandbed correlates directly with the sandbed’s efficiency as a NNR. Those who use shallower DSBs, 4” and less are more likely to fail then those who use the standard depth of 6+. In all my exp. on this forum, I have seen few hobbyist who have set up DSBs that have gone the mile and set up 6” DSB. Yes, it make a difference. Also, few people attempting to setup this system do so correctly. Frequently not understanding that this is a natural filter system, and not just a sand bed. Painstakingly spending hundreds on sands just the right particle size and even depth to then be tempted by placing a jawfish in the DSB. Or an animal that is not so obviously disruptive such as a starfish, a wrasse or even a simple hermit crab .
Again good information, but you still haven't proven why other than saying so. Where is this information taken from or derived from??? I would like to get my hands on the reading material... Kip and I had this very discussion a while ago, and I do agree with the proper maintenance of the sand bed is very important, but for you to say that shallow sand beds are more likely to fail isn't true!!!!! You still never answered where the depth of nitrification and denitrification actually occurs in a sand bed!!!!! Trust me it's not below 4"... Where are you getting the information from???/

 

[iwantacans]

Originally posted by Pyro
anyways, saw myricle mud up there... the reason they ask you to replace it is because it looses all of its nutrients and desolves. You don't relly need to replace it, just add more. I have the stuff in mine I just setup and my levels are already rock solid... I have my doubts about the stuff... but we'll see :thinking:

hmmm last i saw on the site they said to take out the bottom half and replace...
anyway im not gunna try tp preach here, as it was stated earlier we all have our prefrences.. which ever way you go i wish you the best!

 

[iwantacans]

Originally posted by Beth
Just because Dr. Ron's tank turned black, does not mean that everyone elses' will follow suit. .
sighs....... not him again....

 

[acrylic51]

Originally posted by Beth
Basically, DSBs are excellent natural nitrate removers and the depth of the sandbed correlates directly with the sandbed’s efficiency as a NNR. Those who use shallower DSBs, 4” and less are more likely to fail then those who use the standard depth of 6+. In all my exp. on this forum, I have seen few hobbyist who have set up DSBs that have gone the mile and set up 6” DSB. Yes, it make a difference. Also, few people attempting to setup this system do so correctly. Frequently not understanding that this is a natural filter system, and not just a sand bed. Painstakingly spending hundreds on sands just the right particle size and even depth to then be tempted by placing a jawfish in the DSB. Or an animal that is not so obviously disruptive such as a starfish, a wrasse or even a simple hermit crab .
When I set up my reef, I put the sand and the LR in. I have had zero ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate since day 1. Never cycled. All who can say that raise your hand plez.

Again very interesting point, but you fail to mention where you've taken the information from??? I understand the proper way to maintain a sand bed, but you still didn't answer the approximate depth in a sand bed where the nitrification and denitrification process takes place????

 

[acrylic51]

Originally posted by Beth
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...b&pagenumber=2
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...&highlight=dsb
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...&highlight=dsb
Just a few references to running a DSB along with Bang Guy's very long exp with them. Isn't 20 yrs enough to measure success? However, I will say it again. There is a very specific "science" to DSB that needs to be adhered to. If you fail to follow the DSB "dos and don'ts", then you will likely fail. I have found that one of the most important things to success is an interest in the sandbed ecosystem in and of itself. Personally, I like my sand bed just as much as my corals, and take care of it more than I take care of my corals. There are not too many hobbyists that don't run sandbeds somewhere in the system. If not within the aquaria, then as an attached ecosystem "filter".
I don't know much about Mircle Mud. I think the reason they want hobbyists to replace it, is so that their sales will increase.

Beth that is great with your personal experience along with Bangs' as well, but you honestly want me to sit there and just go along with all this when I've just finished reading several articles on this subject by leading experts who have studied this for some time.... So who is right and wrong..... You still haven't answered where the nitrification and denitrification takes place??? Depth in a sand bed????

 

[acrylic51]

Has anyone checked out Steve West website??? Take a look at his tank and you'll be impressed and you won't see a DSB and you tell me they are vital???

 

[golfish]

Originally posted by ReefNut
Squidd, or anyone that has been running a BB for a while... how is the debris cleaned off the bottom of the tank?? The few BB I have seen are not elevated off the bottom so I don't understand how it's cleaned...
IME, if you go BB you need LOTS and LOTS of flow. This keeps the detritus suspended in the water where it gets taken out by the skimmer and or settles out in the sump where it can be easily siphoned out. I also have a seprate fuge with a DSB only that catches half the water from the overflow then goes to the sump. I still get a few small piles of detritus build up in my main tank. What the critters don't get I blow away with a powerhead when I do water changes.
IME, I would have a hard time going back to a DSB in a main tank. I feel its a matter of time before it fails and its alot easier to swap out in a fuge then a main tank.

 

[pyro]

hmm, that would be a heck of a lot of sand to get a DSB in steve wests tank

 

[iwantacans]

Originally posted by golfish
IME, if you go BB you need LOTS and LOTS of flow. This keeps the detritus suspended in the water where it gets taken out by the skimmer and or settles out in the sump where it can be easily siphoned out. I also have a seprate fuge with a DSB only that catches half the water from the overflow then goes to the sump. I still get a few small piles of detritus build up in my main tank. What the critters don't get I blow away with a powerhead when I do water changes.
IME, I would have a hard time going back to a DSB in a main tank. I feel its a matter of time before it fails and its alot easier to swap out in a fuge then a main tank.
i dont even think a fuge with a dsb is nessacary.. just get all that crap outa there with a big ol skimmer and your set.... but i understand why people have remote dsbs...
outa curriosity when the time comes for you to swap out your dsb you gunna turn off all the pump switch it out then turn em all bacvk on? too much work for me...

 

[jazzfish]

I would like to suggest a "middle way." I use just enough crushed seashells to cover the bottom of my tank, and make sure they are either stirred up or vacuumed frequently to remove detritus. I keep an undisturbed deep (8") bed of sand in my refugium which acts as a wonderful nitrate remover. I have the best of both worlds.:thinking:

 

[kimkissyfish]

I have NEVER worried about my dsb (5 inches) but now I'm sitting here just WAITING for it to crash! UGH!
This was an interesting AND informative thread BUT, I think it can confuse and or worry the newbies and semi-experienced hobbyists.
Anyone worried about their DSB now? I am.....
Question? Can a DBS bed be "added to"? with more Live sand?
Thanking you kinldy, Kim

 

[iwantacans]

Originally posted by KimKissyFish
I have NEVER worried about my dsb (5 inches) but now I'm sitting here just WAITING for it to crash! UGH!
This was an interesting AND informative thread BUT, I think it can confuse and or worry the newbies and semi-experienced hobbyists.
Anyone worried about their DSB now? I am.....

and rightfully you should be... youve spent countless $$ on it and you didnt hear all the facts.... the dsb is the biggest money making scam in all of aquaria. some people by the sand from hd but most i would believe buy the bags from the lfs.... at $20 a pop.... hmmmm

 

[tony detroit]

Conspiracy Theory: The makers of Carib Sea Substrates came out with fine grade sand the same time the DSB movement was started.:thinking:
I think that a DSB can work when stocked with the right microfauna. Every couple months. And then restocked again, and again, and again.
BUT for 99.999999% or hobbiests I believe it is only a matter of time till they fail.
I've gone deep, shallow and bare. Bare is the only way to fly. So much cleaner.
And yes, my mandarin is still alive. There isn't some magical population of life in 5'' of playsand you threw in the tank. There are pods, worms, and some bacteria. It's not an ecosystem.
I have a hard time believing you will mimic a ecosystem in a aquarium in your living room.
And I'm sorry, but 4'' of sand, covered in algae all over the front of the glass just looks plain nasty.
As I said before, DSB's are great if you're looking to grow algae.
JMO

 

[iwantacans]

Originally posted by tony detroit
And I'm sorry, but 4'' of sand, covered in algae all over the front of the glass just looks plain nasty.
As I said before, DSB's are great if you're looking to grow algae.
JMO
well said.

 

[jazzfish]

So all you BB folks. Are you entirely relying on LR for bio filtration? Is there a formula I should know of lbs. live rock per gallon of water?