To Float or Drip, that is the question.

[spanko]

Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3098568
....... But they aren't known for being partically hardy, certainly don't handle stress well (which IMO makes them a better indicator for what is stressful and what isn't) .........
This is pretty much why I asked the question, would this person have a different acclimation procedure for fish than the horses knowing that the horses are a tad more fragile.

 

[cranberry]

I doubt he would use a different method, but I'll ask. But here's the thing, we believe it to be the least stressful way; so wouldn't we use what we believe to be the least stressful way on all our fish.... not just the horses?

 

[flpriest]

Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3098522
Just curious for data.....

• What acclimation procedure did you do?
  float bag for about 1 hr, then open bag and take half the water out, put in about a cup of my water, wait 5 min, release into QT
• have you ever had a fish die within the first 24 hours?
  no
  What were the signs/symptoms, if any, that they were exhibiting?
  N/A They get into the QT and try to find a place they feel safe.
  How many fish did you perform this on in the last year and how many died within 24 hours?
  my guestimation is around 15, 0 died within 24 hr. period.

Like I said, it works for me.

 

[cranberry]

I read something in one of my books last night at lunch that some of you may find interesting....
This is quoted from The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook. Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo.
"Proper Acclimation of Animals.
...When a fish is placed in a plastic bag, the dissolved oxygen begins to be depleted by it's respiration and the concentration of carbon dioxide begins to rise. As carbon dioxide increases, the pH of the surrounding water will begin to fall. Because the fish excretes waste into this water, and due to the small volume of water, a buildup of ammonia will occur. Fortunately, as the toxicity of ammonia is inversely proportional to the pH, it's more toxic at a higher pH, the lower pH is actually advantageous and may not be overly troublesome in this situation....."
Talks about floating unopened bag for 15 - 30mins for temp acclimation... I'm hand typing this so your not getting the whole page, just what pertains to the topic ....lol.
"... what is most important is to minimize the time a fish spends in the bag. Since we prefer placing the new fish into a quarantine tank, we recommend the SG of the tank to be kept at around 1.010-1.013. We find this not only helps to hold more oxygen in the water, but is also less taxing on a fish's metabolism and can retard the proliferation of ectoparasites. We do not recommend dripping or dipping tank tank water and mixing it with bag water."
Dr. Michael Stoskopf, a professor of aquatic, wildlife and zoologic veterinary medicine in North Carolina State University states "extensive research clearly indicates that greater mortality is seen with drip acclimation. He favors equalizing the temperature and getting the fish into it's new tank."
"Scott Michael, author of many books on reef fishes, agrees: "I used to drip-acclimate everything, but now I usually just want to get the fish out of the bag and into good water as quickly as possible. I float for no more than 30 minutes. For fish shipped overnight, I cut open the bag, pour off most of the water, and carefully slip the fish into it's receiving tank. I believe this gives me better survival than long drip-acclimation sessions that can be stressful to many fishes."
It's a pretty good book. Aimed at the beginner to mildly intermediate.

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3109455
I read something in one of my books last night at lunch that some of you may find interesting....
This is quoted from The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook. Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo.
"Proper Acclimation of Animals.
...When a fish is placed in a plastic bag, the dissolved oxygen begins to be depleted by it's respiration and the concentration of carbon dioxide begins to rise. As carbon dioxide increases, the pH of the surrounding water will begin to fall. Because the fish excretes waste into this water, and due to the small volume of water, a buildup of ammonia will occur. Fortunately, as the toxicity of ammonia is inversely proportional to the pH, it's more toxic at a higher pH, the lower pH is actually advantageous and may not be overly troublesome in this situation....."
Talks about floating unopened bag for 15 - 30mins for temp acclimation... I'm hand typing this so your not getting the whole page, just what pertains to the topic ....lol.
"... what is most important is to minimize the time a fish spends in the bag. Since we prefer placing the new fish into a quarantine tank, we recommend the SG of the tank to be kept at around 1.010-1.013. We find this not only helps to hold more oxygen in the water, but is also less taxing on a fish's metabolism and can retard the proliferation of ectoparasites. We do not recommend dripping or dipping tank tank water and mixing it with bag water."
Dr. Michael Stoskopf, a professor of aquatic, wildlife and zoologic veterinary medicine in North Carolina State University states "extensive research clearly indicates that greater mortality is seen with drip acclimation. He favors equalizing the temperature and getting the fish into it's new tank."
"Scott Michael, author of many books on reef fishes, agrees: "I used to drip-acclimate everything, but now I usually just want to get the fish out of the bag and into good water as quickly as possible. I float for no more than 30 minutes. For fish shipped overnight, I cut open the bag, pour off most of the water, and carefully slip the fish into it's receiving tank. I believe this gives me better survival than long drip-acclimation sessions that can be stressful to many fishes."
It's a pretty good book. Aimed at the beginner to mildly intermediate.
Interesting...SWF ships the fish in 1.010, eventually it would have to be acclimated to my DT which is kept at 1.023/1.024...since you were typing by hand, did the page say anything about when a good time would be to start that change?
OR
Maybe just for good measure, since it is already low, wait a day or two and start Hypo and make sure ich has no chance???
What do you think?

 

[cranberry]

I'm not sure I get the first question, Flower.
Once you're at 1.010, that's pretty much hypo. You would just leave it there for 6 weeks (IMO) if you were going to do preventative treatments. Was that th eright answer?

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3109512
I'm not sure I get the first question, Flower.
Once you're at 1.010, that's pretty much hypo. You would just leave it there for 6 weeks (IMO) if you were going to do preventative treatments. Was that th eright answer?
Sort of...SWF ships in 1.010...I didn't know that was already hypo??? I have never done hypo...how long could I safely leave the SG low like that to be rid of ich? Right now everything is at 1.023/1.024 No new fish so it dosn't matter at the moment.

 

[cranberry]

The book quotes 3-4 weeks. Some say 6 weeks to be really sure. I do it for 2 months.
Ya, 1.010 is hypo. I aim for 1.009.

 

[cranberry]

Ya, 1.010 is hypo. I aim for 1.009.

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3109540
The book quotes 3-4 weeks. Some say 6 weeks to be really sure. I do it for 2 months.
Ya, 1.010 is hypo. I aim for 1.009.
Thank you, very useful info..

 

[cranberry]

This is why I don't drip acclimate. Shipping water = water to the right. Do you really want your fish hanging out in that?

 

[pezenfuego]

Wow, what a clever title! It's almost as original as my sarcasm.
Anyway, I would say that it depends on the fish and tank in question and that for most fish it doesn't really matter. You have to consider the balance. How long will this fish be in its own waste? How unclean are the LFS tanks? How different are your levels? I use drip acclimating especially for invertebrates. That's my recommendation. Of course, when I'm done acclimating, I float the fish for about 15-30 minutes just to find parity between temperatures.
Cran-to answer your question: No, I do not want my fish hanging out in a tiny little test tube full of chemicals

 

[ibew41]

is that the 5-1 test kit?

 

[cranberry]

No. It's just a tetra ammonia kit.

 

[reefkprz]

IMO and IME after extended time in bags after arrival and opening them is the surest way to kill a fish or cause post shipping health issues.
when i recieve fish from overnight shipping I make sure the seller sends a list of the salinities with the fish for the water they are shipped in, if they wont I dont buy. temp acclimate and bomb into the qt tank which I have adjusted to match their salinities. therefore there is no sudden changes in osmotic pressure for the fish to cope with, they also dont have to sit for 2 hours in an ammonia bath (which attacks the gills first because they are the most sensitive orga exposed, hence heavy breathing often noticed after drip acclimation) which the bag becomes within seconds of opening.
in some cases such as seastars and snails cucumbers and other sensitive creatures that are in a salinity different than my tank I will make a small batch of water to match theirs and get them into the clean water immediatly, then drip adjust the salinity to match my tank over the course of hours.
I have acclimated thousands of fish over the years, both for my home tanks and for commercial tanks (pet store) the lowest fatality rates I have seen is from getting new arrivals out of the shipping water as fast as possible. to a fish adjusting osmotic regulation is far less stressful than recovering from ammonia burn over 100% of the body.
just my two cents.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3097635
However ordering stuff from online sources such as SWF, if you want to the 15 day guarantee to be valid, you will need to follow their acclimation instructions to a T.
while that is how they run their gaurantee, I dont see how its enforcable at all unless they send a rep to witness the drip acclimation process. anyone could bomb acclimate a fish into clean water, then start a drip line and take a picture and say "yup I dripped".... its like telling your kid if they get out of bed the boogey man will get them. since I am not dishonest enough to do such a thing I dont order fish from swf for that reason, I wont subject my fish to a 2 hour ammonia bath after a day in a bag. call me silly if you will.

 

[cranberry]

I still drip acclimate inverts who also don't tolerate ammonia in their bags.
So, this is what I do that peeps who want to still drip can follow.
Get in the habit of testing your bag water. It takes 20 minutes for test vial results, which is too long for your critter to be sitting in ammonia. So I whip out the test strips first. Not greatly accurate, but will give ya an idea if ammonia is present. I also remove a sample of the bag water and test for ammonia using a proper test kit. (along with other parameters for logging purposes).
If the the test strip is positive, I remove some of the bag water and mix it with some Amquel to be returned to the bag. At least that way they aren't sitting in ammonia while you drip away......

 

[xcali1985]

I use to float until just recently, I now drip. Its just a simpler method Ive only done this with LFS purchases, so I would have to witness the health of the fish invert etc if it was an online order.
Its so simple to take a 3 gallon bucket or so and dump the water(make sure they give you large bags) and let it just dip through a knotted airline for an hour or so. Instead of floating then removing water, then adding, etc. I purchased 13 corals from my LFS and all of them are thriving opened 70% the same day. Now two weeks later they are improving in color and size.

 

[cranberry]

Shipment from 3/23
Shipping water on the left. Control on the right.

If you want to drip, I would play it safe and buy some dipsticks for ammonia and have some Ultimate/Amquel+/whatever on hand. The dipsticks are accurate enough to tell you if ammonia is present. You can't trust any of the values to be correct, however. I've had false positives, but never the other way around. S,o I trust the sticks to be an accurate indicator that there is ammonia in my bag.
Ammonia may not kill a fish outright if it is short exposures or exposures to low levels, but can shorten a life and the fish tend to be more susceptable to illness.
I have a new shipment coming today.