Ugh do I feel like an idiot...

[wartooth]

So I think my want to start a saltwater aquarium has gotten the best of me...
Got a tip from a friend that he knows about a fish store that sells aquariums cheap. So I went there with my wife and asked told the guy that all other fish stores say I can't get get anything for under 2000... he laughed and told me he can set my up with a complete system for under 500. Of course that made me (and my wife) really excited.
So I wound up buying a system which consisted of a JEBO 40 gallon tank with stand. There is a power filter which snaps into the hood, an under-gravel filter, a heater, a pumo for circulation, and a pair of flouescent lights (a blue bulb and a white bulb). I am unsure of the wattage but the guy at the store says it will support corals, and if I want to go brighter I can trade it in for a more powerful light. Now I know this is cheap equipment but I got to admit, once everything was put together, it does look very nice.
No here is where the red flags came up and why I feel like a moron... When I asked about how to get the tank started, he gave me the following instructions:
1. Place 2/3rds of gravel into the tank (which I bought).
2. Place half a bag of sea salt into the tank (which I bought).
3. Fill the tank up with hose or tap water.
4. Put AmQuel chlorine remover into the tank as directed (bought that stuff too).
5. Let everything run for 24 hours.
6. Come back to the store for live rock and some damsels... let tank cycle for a few weeks and now I'm ready to start adding other fish, inverts, or corals.
And I'm thinking to myself... really? 24 hours? This kinda goes against everything I've read and discussed here. I am also not a fan of using damsels and guinea pigs especially since there is nothing "live" in the tank yet. I am also uncomfortable using hose water to full the tank with.. and now I am also afraid that if I used live sand instead of the gravel I'm going to clog the under-gravel filter.
Well anyway, I've made my bed and now I have to sleep in it, as the saying goes. Any advise from the community that can help me make the best of the situation is truly appreciated.
Thank you.

 

[flower]

The uderground filter is a toss out, or return it and get your money back. You need one of the following, your choice....a hang on the back penguin type filter, canister filter , wet/dry or sump.
You want live sand and live rock. You can buy dead dry rock and or dry aragonite sand, sugar size, do not get crushed coral or gravel.
The light you purchased will suport soft and low light coral. The tank is fine and so it the stand.
First fill the tank with tap water to check for leaks and empty it.
Step #1. get a plastic garbage can (37g is good) and mark it FISH ONLY, you will use it for water changes and many other things later. Also get a small utility pump and a hose to fit it..enough to reach from the bottom of your tub to the top of your tank. This will save your back big time.
Step #2. On the salt bucket it says you need to add 1/2 cup of salt for every gallon of water. Use ONLY Reverse Osmoses water, Wal-mart sells it by the jugs..fill your tub with it and add the salt. Use the small utility piump to churn it for you..24 hours...Check the SG to see the reading. There is a safe zone marked on hydrometers, as long as the first batch of saltwater is within that range you are good to use it.
Step #3. Fill the tank 1/2 way with the mixed saltwater....Add the rock first on the bottom of the tank, then add your sand around it.
Step #4. Finish filling the tank. Hook up your filter, put your light on and get a chunk of raw shrimp or some other raw chunk of seafood and put it in the tank to kick start your cycle. I attach a sticker type thermometer to the side of the fish tank, get a heater and set it to 78 degrees.
Note: At the same time as doing step 4..do this: A quarantine tank is now needed (just set up a small tank the same as your main tank, but with just a few rocks and very little if anything sand.) If you skip this step you may land up with sickness in the tank and have to deal with that, which could be costly. I HIGHLY recommend a QT when stocking your tank...add one or at the most two fish at any one time.
Step #5. Get a master test kit ( all tests needed are in the kit, and will be cheaper to buy that way) test each day for ammonia, after you get a nice spike remove the chunk of seafood, when ammonia drops to 0, test for nitrites, when nitrites drop to 0, test for nitrates.
Step #6. Remix some new saltwater in your tub and for good practice since after adding fish you must do this..check your SG, a refractometer is the most accurate but a hydrometer cost less and unless you are doing hypo it will be good enough. Make sure the SG in the tub matches the SG in your fish tank. Remove about half the water from the tank and replace it with the new mixed saltwater, this is called a water change.
Step #7. Time to do some homework, look at some fish books, ask some folks on this site or find a fish at SWF online that can live in your size tank as an adult. You must select carefully. Whatever you add must be able to live with in peace, whatever critter you may want to add later. Put the new critter into your QT and watch the fish about 3 weeks for any sign of disease or parasites.
Later you will need a skimmer.

 

[mproctor4]

You may not have gotten a bad deal on the aquarium/equpiment, but you certainly got bad advice. I would be very leery taking advice or buying from them without doing alot of researchon your own first. There is absolutely no need to torture damsels during your cycle. Some live rock or live sand and a piece of dead shrimp will work very well. Have you started putting the aquarium together yet? Personally, I would not use the underground filter. What do you mean by gravel? Do you have agronite? If it truely is aquarium gravel, I would take that back and exchange it for agronite or sand. You will be happier if you start your tank with RO/DI water. It is worth it to make a couple of trips to the LFS to purchase RO/DI, most of our LFS sell it for $.20-$.25/gallon, it will save you alot of headaches fighting algea down the road .Someday it may be worth it to you to purchase your own unit, with a 40 gal tank it isn't too big of a deal to purchase water by the gallon. It is okay to mix the salt in the tank the FIRST time only, after that mix it in a bucket or some container with a pump and heater for 24 hours before adding to your tank.
Get the tank up and running, add some live rock or sand, add a piece of dead shrimp for a few days, get yourself a good test kit, and sit back and wait. You can use the time to continue to research and ask questions. Do not trust the person who has given you this advice.
Starting a new tank is always exciting! Welcome to the saltwater addiction and of coarse show some pictures!!

 

[mproctor4]

Wow Flower...you beat me too it and your post are very clear and complete

The only thing I would add is the last time I QT a dwarf angel for 5 weeks and it looked perfect, no signs of any illness at all until I put it into my DT. (the DT had previously been fallow for 6 weeks and all fish had went thru hypo, so pretty sure no ick in there) The next day the flame showed signs of ick for a few hours, then it looked fine again, but the ick was back in the tank. Several weeks down the drain. The ick was back with a vengence with the next addition, which had been QT also and I had to start the whole nightmare over again. Personally, I won't add any fish to the DT without undergoing some sort of treatment first even if they do not show any signs of a parasite. Previously I choose not to treat unless their were symptoms, but now I treat them all like they have ick, so far I have not lost any fish and it protects the fish I already have.

 

[wartooth]

Thanks guys, I called the store today (I had to leave the tank there overnight because it wouldnt fit in my car and they were closing)... they say that the UG filter is not the main filter in the setup they made for me... They say its main purpose is to cultivate the beneficial bacteria in the gravel (actually argonite). The main filtration source is the wet/dry filter in the hood. They also said that since I have multiple pumps in the setup I shouldn't have to worry about the UG filter getting clogged as there will be very stron circulation in the tank. They said this is how setups were done the old fashion way and said I should give it a try but if I'm not happy with it I can trade it in for an alternate filtration source. I figure there is no harm in trying it out since I can trade it in if I don't like it.

 

[bang guy]

After decades of saltwater tanks my conclusion is that high waterflow and live sand is the best filtration.
For what it's worth ---> Bang Guy's Cycle Method

 

[mproctor4]

Many years ago I had an undergravel filter and a canister filter. Technology is much better today and I would not do that again. Your agronite and live rock will cultivate beneficial bacteria just fine if you have adequate water flow. If I remember correctly (could be a long shot there), underground filters need substrate that is coarser than agronite, they function best with crushed coral which will ultimately be a nitrate factory. If you are doing a fish only tank, the nitrates aren't such a concern, if you want corals or invertebrates, you could have issues with high nitrates. If you decide you don't like the undergravel filter, it will be difficult to remove. You will probably have a mini cycle after removing your live rock and all of your substrate to get the filter out. You won't know if it is a problem or not until the tank has been set up for quite some time and then what will you do with your live stock? This store has already given you some very bad advice. Personally, I would not listen to their advice (or buy from them again), look at the archives here or another forum, and use your best judgement. The more problems you have, the more they sell you to fix the problem. Sorry, but most likely they don't have your best interest in mind, they are out to make money. Occasionally you will find a great LFS that tries their best to give you the best advice they can, they will be your new best friend but still don't take their word as gospel. It sounds like you are asking some really good questions. Just take your time, research, keep asking questions, and you will have a great tank with many years of enjoyment. It is just easier to figure it out now than to make major changes later.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wartooth http:///forum/thread/385813/ugh-do-i-feel-like-an-idiot#post_3385531
Thanks guys, I called the store today (I had to leave the tank there overnight because it wouldnt fit in my car and they were closing)... they say that the UG filter is not the main filter in the setup they made for me... They say its main purpose is to cultivate the beneficial bacteria in the gravel (actually argonite). The main filtration source is the wet/dry filter in the hood. They also said that since I have multiple pumps in the setup I shouldn't have to worry about the UG filter getting clogged as there will be very stron circulation in the tank. They said this is how setups were done the old fashion way and said I should give it a try but if I'm not happy with it I can trade it in for an alternate filtration source. I figure there is no harm in trying it out since I can trade it in if I don't like it.
Oh and power heads, you absolutly must have power heads. The filter may move things a little but not near enough for a reef tank. The current is the life of the ocean and your saltwater tank. 2 small power heads are better than 1 huge one, the top of your water should look like it's boiling. A saltwater tank only looks calm, inside a reef it's like a washing machine in there. Don't get the underground filter...the bacteria lives on the rock and sand..the wet/dry is the only filter you need. Once you have all that rock and sand on top of an underground filter...you would have to dismantle the whole dang thing to get to it to remove it, so I'm telling you don't do it in the first place. The UG filter's two bubble towers on the side is not enough to create a good current. The "old fashioned way" keep in mind the saltwater critters usually died within a month..the new more advanced way and our critters live for years.
The reason I said to mix your first saltwater in the tub is because you want your tank only halfway full to arrange the rocks and sand...a full tank is miserable to try and work around. You will need less water the more you add sand and rock. If the tank is only 1/2 full to begin with it will save you all the way around.

 

[deejeff442]

he said to put the sand in then pour dry salt .then add water?i thought i heard it all but i guess not.

 

[tur4k]

I'm with everyone else here. The undergravel filter is only going to cause problems. Those bubble towers are going to cause an insane amount of salt creep. I personally can't think of a good reason to put an air stone in a saltwater tank. I prefer my salt to stay in the water. Not form a sheet down the back of my tank. I've tried "the old fashioned way". It really did not work well.
You can mix the initial saltwater in the tank if you want, but not with live rock or live sand in there. It won't be "live" for long if you do. Do yourself a favor and listen to Flower and Bang Guy.

 

[tur4k]

You also probably want to put the rock in BEFORE the sand. There are a lot of critters that like to burrow in the sand. Having 100 lbs of rock collapse on them is not ideal.
- Fill tank half way with saltwater.
- Add rocks.
- Add sand around the rocks.
- Fill rest of the way with salt water.
Don't add rocks or sand (or anything) to freshly mixed saltwater. Let water age at least over night to make sure everything is dissolved.

 

[xcali1985]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///forum/thread/385813/ugh-do-i-feel-like-an-idiot#post_3385538
After decades of saltwater tanks my conclusion is that high waterflow and live sand is the best filtration.
For what it's worth ---> Bang Guy's Cycle Method
The only filtration I have on mine is rock and sand also. Outside a canister filter type I would say anyone selling you anything different is making money off your lack of knowledge. Best course of action is research and research some more then ask questions here and people here have been doing this for years and can save you hundreds of dollars that they already wasted a thousand times over.

 

[wartooth1]

Thanks guys,
For what its worth I've set the tank up running the UG filter. I found a handy article online on how to maintain an aquarium using this filter and I figured since I have the tools for the job I might as well give it a go...
At the moment it only has about half as much live rock as I need so I intend to get another 20 pounds soon. So far when I dip a test strip in it everything is in the expected (and good) parameters. The only problem is I mixed in too much salt and I've been making daily 20% water changes with conditioned freshwater to bring the salt level down.
I did confirm that the sand I'm currently using is coral sand. Would anyone be able to tell me if the wet/dry filter that came with the aquarium is good enough to run on its own if I were to remove the UG filter and replace the coral sand with live sand? The aquarium is called the JEBO R375.

 

[tur4k]

A: The UG filter is going to do more harm then good. Return it or throw it in the trash.
B: The Wet/Dry along with the live rock is plenty. Just be sure to not let the bio balls in the Wet/Dry get nasty or they can become a nitrate factory.
C: I'm not sure what "coral sand" is. Crushed Coral? Aragonite? If it's Aragonite, I'd just buy a bag of Live sand and add it to what's there or add some sand from an established tank.

 

[tur4k]

I'll expand on my previous post a little. 20 years ago we used undergravel filters because we didn't know any better. The idea is that the bubble towers move water through the sand so that bacteria in the sand can convert ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates. There are two problems with this. The first problem is that you probably don't want to be sucking everything down into your sandbed to rot. The second is that you are using an air stone in a salt water tank.
All of the little bubbles coming from those air stones are going to cause a MASSIVE amount of salt creep. Salt is going to constantly be forming a sheet down the back of your tank. This quickly becomes a giant pain in the butt. I would never put an air stone in a salt water tank unless it was part of some emergency power loss backup plan.
A Wet/Dry filter is going to do the exact same thing as an undergravel filter without the negative side effects. Well...it can cause problems too if you let food rot in the bio balls. The live rock is also doing the same thing. Providing surface area for bacteria to colonize. There is just no reason to use an undergravel filter and several reasons why you shouldn't.
EDIT:
Are we talking about an actual wet/dry trickle filter with bio-balls or just a built in filter that pumps water through a cartridge of filter floss and carbon? If its just a filter cartridge then you will be relying on live rock and live sand for nitrification. You should be OK if you make sure you have plenty of flow (power heads) and don't over stock.

 

[flower]

Nothing is more frustrating than to give advice and it not be taken. In the end it's your tank and you have to make your own mistakes. So you have decided to use two things we tried to guide you away from, crushed coral and an UG filter. So forward from that point....
First thing to address..weight, I'm not sure how well UG filter grids can hold up to the weight of live rock. The grid was designed for gravel and some ornaments. Not the 35 to 40 pounds of rock your 40g tank will need. It's very possible it can do just fine because some folks on the site have used egg crate to place their rock on rather than the glass bottom of the tank. The grids caused different issues but I believe it had to do with gobies that couldn't get to certain areas to clean the sand.
It has been addressed that tiny bubbles caused from air stones get into the saltwater fishes gills and causes problems, to avoid this problem you can remove the airstone and just use the air tube down the UG tubes making the bubbles larger. I will still do the same job of pulling from the bottom without the tiny bubble issue and remove the threat they may cause.
Crushed coral and the underground grid....I don't THINK (I am not sure) you can use live sand with an UG it is too fine, the CC is large like gravel, that's why it works with an UG filter but it's not good for certain fish. So when you stock your tank be careful to not get any burrowing fish like certain gobies or wrasses. The larger substrate is harder for snails to clean up and you may land up with cleaning the substrate yourself.
For me, one of the most wonderful part of a SW tank was having a CUC, and me not doing stuff like vacuuming the substrate...so you may have made more work for yourself. I say may because I have not used an UG filter ever, but I know how horrible CC is to keep clean and looking good. I removed it from my tank after 3 months.
You do need power heads. The bubbles may bring oxygen to the tank and move the water surface a little, but it does not create a current. The current is the life of the ocean and your SW tank. Corals feed from the water passing across them, they can't move on their own, the current is what makes the corals dance..without it they just lay there and starve, the current also carries away their waste. The current also passes over the live rock keeping it clean and healthy.
I have two bubble lines in 30g my seahorse tank which is loaded with soft corals. Still I use three spray bars and a small power head to create my water current. Its hard to see the bubbles in the picture but it should help with a visual of what I'm talking about.

 

[tur4k]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///forum/thread/385813/ugh-do-i-feel-like-an-idiot#post_3386338
I have two bubble lines in 30g my seahorse tank which is loaded with soft corals. Still I use three spray bars and a small power head to create my water current. Its hard to see the bubbles in the picture but it should help with a visual of what I'm talking about.
What are the bubble lines for? Don't they cause creep? I tried using a UG filter like a decade ago and the creep from the bubbles was truly awful. Also most of my fish would die within a month of putting them in that tank. It was a really bad setup. UG filter, HOB filter cartridge filter, no power heads, crushed coral.... That LFS gave me some really bad advice.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tur4k http:///forum/thread/385813/ugh-do-i-feel-like-an-idiot#post_3386340
What are the bubble lines for? Don't they cause creep? I tried using a UG filter like a decade ago and the creep from the bubbles was truly awful. Also most of my fish would die within a month of putting them in that tank. It was a really bad setup. UG filter, HOB filter cartridge filter, no power heads, crushed coral.... That LFS gave me some really bad advice.
Seahorses need the lines, I wish I could tell you why, but I set up the tank according to instruction and I don't remember why I had to have at least one bubble line, I use two because frankly, I like the look, and since I can't on my 90g I do on the SH tank... It is set up different than a regular reef. That's why all the spray bars, and yes it gets salt all over the lights protector glass and the pump in the back...I must wipe it daily because I can't imagine leaving it until it's so bad it creeps down the back..but I have seen plenty of tanks like that.. I do try and regulate the bubbles but I either have them too fast and large, or too slow and useless.
I don't think what killed your fish was the UG filter, but the NO POWER HEADS part. Doesn't sound like you used a skimmer then either. Its true that back in the day before power heads were used, fish only lived about a month. SW tanks became successful when folks figured out to mimic the ocean they came from..live rock, live sand and power heads for current made all the difference in the world. This hobby is expensive enough, but could you imagine replacing your livestock every month? It really was a rich person's hobby back then, but they paved the way for the rest of us.

 

[bang guy]

I don't understand the comment that Seahorses requiring bubble lines. That doesn't sound right to me but then I'm not a Seahorse person. Have you asked TeresaQ about this in the Seahorse Forum?
Saltcreep is not only unsightly but it can also be dangerous because it can collect around electric fittings, pull them apart and then wick water even uphill.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///forum/thread/385813/ugh-do-i-feel-like-an-idiot#post_3386354
I don't understand the comment that Seahorses require bubble lines. That doesn't sound right to me but then I'm not a Seahorse person. Have you asked TeresaQ about this in the Seahorse Forum?
Yes she is my Seahorse guru...LOL..she is the one who told me how to set the tank up, and told me to put in a bubble line, but I can't remember the why. I assume it has something to do with oxygen since SH tanks don't have the kind of turbulance other SW tanks have.