Underground water pipes.

coral keeper

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeoJ
http:///forum/post/2567278
Just one thought, the more water below ground the cooler the ten gal will be. If it was 1 degree colder and you had 10 gal above and 10 below you may get ½-1 degree change in the tank. If you had 10 above and 20 below you would think to get more cooling.
This just might work good luck.
Ok. But can someone answer the question I asked above about the garden tubing and the pvc? Thanks!
 

reefforbrains

Active Member
thin garden hose will work but its as effective at transfering the heat. As for the copper ends...just cut them off and put on nylon pressure fitting nippples. Its not high flow so no worries about leaking.
BangGuy, stop lurkin and jump on in with some of your ingenuity.
-RFB
 

coral keeper

Active Member
Originally Posted by ReefForBrains
http:///forum/post/2567438
thin garden hose will work but its as effective at transfering the heat. As for the copper ends...just cut them off and put on nylon pressure fitting nippples. Its not high flow so no worries about leaking.
BangGuy, stop lurkin and jump on in with some of your ingenuity.
-RFB
Ok. Thanks!! I'll start digging tomorrow.
 

reefforbrains

Active Member
Bring your dog, and your camera.
And if your system has some results then I think I just found a summer job for you if you want to replicate it in a larger scale for my new tank. LOL
 

coral keeper

Active Member
Originally Posted by ReefForBrains
http:///forum/post/2567538
Bring your dog, and your camera.
And if your system has some results then I think I just found a summer job for you if you want to replicate it in a larger scale for my new tank. LOL
LOL
 

ameno

Active Member
Not trying to rain on your parade, but to give some credibility to what I'm gona tell you, I am a piping engineering consultant, and have done piping systems of all types for many years. Although I have never actually designed a heat exchanger, which is what your are attempting to build, I have installed quite a few. The biggiest problem is the water will not be in contact with the cooler ground temp. long enough to give much if any temp. change.
The more surface area of the water in contact with the coooler temp.and the longer it stays at the cooler temp the more change in temp. will accure. going thru 34' of water hose from one end to the other the water will only be going thru the ground for maybe 20 seconds or so. To test this you could wrap the hose up into a frig. and run water thru it and see if there is a change.
For this to possibly work you would have to have it set up with a header or large pipe supply with many small tubes coming off of it, preferably aluminum and go thru to a return header, sim. to a radiator type set-up.
Sorry not trying to just be neg. it might would work with a piping arrangement like I described but you will have considerable head loss when doing this.
Plus overtime the ground will heat up from exchanging temp.
 

coral keeper

Active Member
Originally Posted by ameno
http:///forum/post/2568208
Not trying to rain on your parade, but to give some credibility to what I'm gona tell you, I am a piping engineering consultant, and have done piping systems of all types for many years. Although I have never actually designed a heat exchanger, which is what your are attempting to build, I have installed quite a few. The biggiest problem is the water will not be in contact with the cooler ground temp. long enough to give much if any temp. change.
The more surface area of the water in contact with the coooler temp.and the longer it stays at the cooler temp the more change in temp. will accure. going thru 34' of water hose from one end to the other the water will only be going thru the ground for maybe 20 seconds or so. To test this you could wrap the hose up into a frig. and run water thru it and see if there is a change.
For this to possibly work you would have to have it set up with a header or large pipe supply with many small tubes coming off of it, preferably aluminum and go thru to a return header, sim. to a radiator type set-up.
Sorry not trying to just be neg. it might would work with a piping arrangement like I described but you will have considerable head loss when doing this.
Plus overtime the ground will heat up from exchanging temp.
Ok. Thanks for all the info! So, it looks like this underground chiller plan wont work. I guess I'll use the chiller I have.
 

coral keeper

Active Member
Hey ReefForBrains, I have a question for you. Remember that chiller you gave me? What will be the best way to cool down water with it? Cover up the copper coil and put it in the tank or wrap tubing around it and pump water through the tubing? Thanks!! Oh yeah, if the tubing will be better, what kind of tubing should I use?
 

darknes

Active Member
I don't think it's feasible, especially with a rubber hose.
I did the heat transfer calculations with quick guestimations for the following:
hose inside diameter: 1 inch
hose thickness: 1/8 inch
ground temp: 50 F
water temp: 82 F
hose length: 37 feet
thermal conductivity of hose: .12 W/mK
and you get about 100 watts of heat transfer per unit time. This is not going to be enough to keep up with the heat being added to the tank. Theoretically, it is possible if you used a much longer length of tubing, tubing with a better conductivity such as copper, and could calculate what your tank size and heat change in one hour is without any chiller.
 

darknes

Active Member
btw, the ground won't increase in temperature. There's plenty of mass there for it to dissipate to, unless you were cooling a powerplant lol.
 

reefforbrains

Active Member
Optimum would be to change out the cooling lead with a titanium one so it is reef safe.
The current system is not designed to be a serviceable line so once the line is broken or popped the coolant will need to be replaced.
To refill or make the system servicable you would need to soldier in a valve. Easiest way to describe would be to tell you to look under the hood of your car. there is a valve inline with the cooling system that is made just for this purpose. To evacuate and refill refrigerant for the car's a/c system.
Since the little chiller's system does NOT have a valve, one would need to be soldiered in place.
Again I hesitate to offer too much instruction on this since chiller function is dangerous if you dont know what your doing. Not rocket science but the chemicals truely can be fatal if mishandled. With such small amounts you would have to try quite hard to hurt yourself but never be careless with such chems in ANY amount.
Might seem like I am being a mother hen but I urge you strongly to do some reading and bring yourself up to speed with how each component functions before playing with these chems and systems. I found some rudementary diagrams of how it all functions so if you can follow the course of how this all works together than by all means you can do this project. Just be safe

Diagram of a typical cooling system
The compressor compresses cool Freon gas, causing it to become hot, high-pressure Freon gas (red in the diagram above).
This hot gas runs through a set of coils so it can dissipate its heat, and it condenses into a liquid.
The Freon liquid runs through an expansion valve, and in the process it evaporates to become cold, low-pressure Freon gas (light blue in the diagram above).
This cold gas runs through a set of coils that allow the gas to absorb heat and cool down whatever if touching it. IE air, liquid, plumbing ect
Mixed in with the Freon is a small amount of a lightweight oil. This oil lubricates the compressor.
So this is the general concept involved in freon cooled systems
Parts of your Chiller I built.
The basic idea behind any chiller is to use the evaporation of a liquid to absorb heat. When you put water on your skin it makes you feel cool. As the water evaporates, it absorbs heat, creating that cool feeling. Rubbing alcohol feels even cooler because it evaporates at a lower temperature. The liquid, or refrigerant, used in a refrigerator evaporates at an extremely low temperature, so it can create freezing temperatures inside the chillers system. If you place your chiller system's refrigerant on your skin (definitely NOT a good idea), it will freeze your skin as it evaporates.
There are five basic parts to any refridge, chiller, A/c unit.
x - Compressor
x - Heat-exchanging pipes - serpentine or coiled set of pipes outside the unit
x - Expansion valve
x - Heat-exchanging pipes - serpentine or coiled set of pipes inside the unit
x - Refrigerant - liquid that evaporates inside the refrigerator to create the cold temperatures
industrial installations use pure ammonia as the refrigerant. Pure ammonia evaporates at -27 degrees Fahrenheit (-32 degrees Celsius).

The basic mechanism of a system works like this:
The compressor compresses the refrigerant gas. This raises the refrigerant's pressure and temperature (orange), so the heat-exchanging coils outside the chiller (the gridwork on the back) allow the refrigerant to dissipate the heat of pressurization.
As it cools, the refrigerant condenses into liquid form (purple) and flows through the expansion valve.
When it flows through the expansion valve, the liquid refrigerant is allowed to move from a high-pressure zone to a low-pressure zone, so it expands and evaporates (light blue). In evaporating, it absorbs heat, making it cold.
The coils inside the water (drop in) allow the refrigerant to absorb heat, making the water cold. The cycle then repeats.
 

reefforbrains

Active Member
Something I forgot...
On the little system I built I added some addittions
to use as a chiller I added the thermal probe that is wired to the master rocker switch that controlls the compressor.
The probe then has an adjustment so you can let the temp of the tank be felt by the compressor and turn it on/off accordingly. This also allows you to set the desired stable temp of the tank.
So those are three more parts to the basic system outlined above but should be self explanitory when looking at the system.
-rfb
 

coral keeper

Active Member
Ok. So I should change the copper tubings in for titanium tubing. How much will the titanium tubing cost for the chiller and how much will it cost to full up the titanium tubing with the gas? Thanks!
 
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