Very Sick Fish

[violet puff]

Don't know what's going on with tank. It's been up and running for a few months. The display tank is a 55 gallon reef tank with 90 lbs of live rock, 2 chromis, 2 cleaner shrimp and multiple snails and hermits. Water parameters are good- Nitrate very low (too low?) at 0-5, Nitrite at 0, pH at 8.0. Temps been running a little high at 80.0-83.0... Salinity at 1.022 but Porcupine Puffer and Kole Tang are both very ich infested, using coral vital everyday and keeping water clean, been having the ich problem for about 3 weeks now and its just getting worse. Puffer's eyes are all cloudy and the Tang is losing it's color, looks almost bleached out. Feeding them what the pet store guys recommened- Freeze dried krill for puff and Marine Algae for Tang (feeding chromis Mysis and spirulina algae Brine). Changing out another 5 gallons tonight, getting some garlic elixir in a few days (in the mail)... Very beside myself as to what to do, any suggestions are greatly appriciated. Concitering a QT tank but dont really know how to go about that- is there anybody in the Seattle area that has a fish hospital?

 

[geridoc]

There is a fish hospital in Seattle - at your house! A QT tank is one of the most important pieces of equipment for salt water fishkeeping. It is easy to set up and maintain. Get an inexpensive 10 gallon tank (or a rubbermaid container), put one or two pieces of PVC piping into it for shelter, add a heater and an inexpensive HOT filter and you have a perfectly good QT. It needs to be cycled, and you are set to go. You can accelerate the cycle with a small amount of gravel from your DT, or a piece of filter material that is kept in the DT so it will be loaded with bacteria. Ich will not go away in your DT as long as there are fish in it, and no amount of garlic will make it do so. You need to move all of your fish into the QT and do hypo on them while the DT remains fishless for about 4-6 weeks. It also sounds like your fish have secondary infections, so you might need Maracyn II in addition to hypo. There are detailed instructions for all of this in the stickies at the top of this forum. It sounds like your fish are pretty sick, but make the effort - at the very worst, you will learn how to quarantine fish before introducing them into your DT, and how to treat sick fish. Good luck!

 

[renogaw]

oh my goodness, these poor fish. you've let them go 3 weeks with ich and are just now wondering whtat to do your "considering a qt tank" should be over immediately and you have to set one up. there is a great thread at the top of this forum on how to set them up and how to do hypo.

 

[violet puff]

Alright GeriDoc, thanks. Alot of what i've read (even on here) is that the fish can develop immunities to ich and that sometimes the best thing to do to not further stress them out is to maintain good water parameters and see if they can fight it off themselves. In the 3 weeks it has looked like it had gone away, then the next day or so it comes back, gets better, etc. It has only been since yesterday the cloudy eyes have devoloped, and I am seeing that it needs to be agressively treated.

 

[geridoc]

Disappearance, then reappearance is the usual pattern for ich. The lifecycle includes dropping off of the animal, development in the substrate, hatching and reinfecting the fish again. There is some evidence that some fish can develop immunity to ich, but why risk it? If you have an infection you might develop immunity fast enough to defeat it before it overwhelms you, but you don't risk it, you take an antibiotic. Hypo is well tolerated and effective, but as I said before, you might need to treat the cloudy eye with an antibiotic.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by violet puff
Alright GeriDoc, thanks. Alot of what i've read (even on here) is that the fish can develop immunities to ich and that sometimes the best thing to do to not further stress them out is to maintain good water parameters and see if they can fight it off themselves. In the 3 weeks it has looked like it had gone away, then the next day or so it comes back, gets better, etc. It has only been since yesterday the cloudy eyes have devoloped, and I am seeing that it needs to be agressively treated.
I would not be overly concerned about the cloudy eye. It will clear when the stress is removed. Set up the QT asap. It may be easier to set up a rubbermaid for your rocks and inverts. The fish will be less stressed in the aquarium, you won't run the risk of inflating you puffer when you move him, and there will not be a cycle to deal with.

 

[violet puff]

so it isn't completely necessary to cycle the QT tank? I've read the posts by Beth on how to set them up, and If I get the right water parameters how soon is it ok to put Roscoe (puffer) in the QT tank? I lost the tang this morning :....(

 

[violet puff]

Also, yesterday when i went to get the water tested, they said there was a phosphate problem. We installed this bag of stuff called ROWA phos phospate remover. Thats all they told us to do, with water changes and said nothing about the other tank. It obviously didnt work because I lost my beautiful Kole this morning. Also, they recommended this stuff called coral vital that I've been using (in proper dosage) Could that have been where the phosphates were comming from? Tested all water sources and none of them had any phosphates.

 

[violet puff]

I'm a stupid newbie I know. But there are lives at risk here, can someone please tell me how long it takes to cycle the QT tank? I know it took a few weeks for the main tank. I have the rubbermaid 14 gallon and salt water mixing. Can someone please help, my fish and I are suffering

 

[renogaw]

phosphates will not affect your fish. it is the by products of over feeding and the wrong type of food. all it does is feed algae. that's it.
PLEASE do not add anything unless you know what it does and you can test it.
The purpose of Coral Vital is to relieve stress caused to Coralline Algae. The stress is generally created by the binding of beneficial substrates within the aquatic environment, eliminating their use and effectiveness. Coral Vital has an array of minerals with carriers of invert sugars that replace the bound substrates.
why on earth would your LFS tell you to put this in? it is most likely a calcium or alk buffer, and if you cannot test for that stuff then do not put it in.

 

[violet puff]

Originally Posted by renogaw
why on earth would your LFS tell you to put this in? it is most likely a calcium or alk buffer, and if you cannot test for that stuff then do not put it in.
my guess is as good as yours. It was actually recommended by 2 different LFS, I suppose because it's invertabrate safe but didnt do a darn bit of good which makes me kinda disillusioned on taking their advice. Well, I thank you for the gentle (hehe) encouragement on getting that QT tank set up. Treating with T.C. Tetrocycline by Aquarium Pharmicuticals and CopperSafe. The puffer is looking better already, eating twice a day again.
Um , is it ok to Put an Air Stone in with a Saltwater fish? I also have a bio-wheel filter but it didnt seem like it provided enough aeration. ??

 

[beth]

Those medications just are not very effective. I would suggest setting up a temporary holding container (such as a Rubbermaid) for your live rock, and treating your fish with hyposalinity.

 

[renogaw]

Originally Posted by violet puff
Um , is it ok to Put an Air Stone in with a Saltwater fish? I also have a bio-wheel filter but it didnt seem like it provided enough aeration. ??

no air stones in salt water tanks.
2 reasons: microbubbles are not good for fish's gills, and think of how a skimmer works

 

[violet puff]

oh ok, right. It was making the top all foamy. Im embarassed to admit, but I have had Fresh Water fish my whole life but I'm a newbie at SW. I need all the help I can get!

 

[violet puff]

Originally Posted by Beth
Those medications just are not very effective. I would suggest setting up a temporary holding container (such as a Rubbermaid) for your live rock, and treating your fish with hyposalinity.
I did forget to mention I was treating with hyposalinity. First to 1.019, and now to 1.012. Right now I have 2 pieces of live rock in a 10 gallon tank (I put a black shirt underneath) to help cycle. I am doing a water change tommorow, as directed by the tetracycline meds. Really those dont work? I know the ich meds dont work as they say on the package but I figgured since its a human antibiotic also it might do some good for the cloudy eye and *gulp* fin and tail rot

 

[spoiledberners]

Violet, sorry to hear about your fish loss. Which LFS do you shop at? I'm in the Seattle area too. Just curious.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by violet puff
I did forget to mention I was treating with hyposalinity. First to 1.019, and now to 1.012. Right now I have 2 pieces of live rock in a 10 gallon tank (I put a black shirt underneath) to help cycle. I am doing a water change tommorow, as directed by the tetracycline meds. Really those dont work? I know the ich meds dont work as they say on the package but I figgured since its a human antibiotic also it might do some good for the cloudy eye and *gulp* fin and tail rot

You should not have your LR in hypo. The die off is likely to be more than the bacteria within the rock can handle, let alone the additional bioload of the fish. Pull that rock out and be ready to do some water changes. Did you use any filter media from the display? It is important to lower the Sg over 48 hours, no more no less. You can use a med for the cloudy eye and the fin and tail rot. I would suggest Maracyn2 for saltwater, but it realy is not necessary if you remove the stress of the parasite and dose his food with vitamines while feeding nutritious foods.

 

[violet puff]

ok, thanks, taking the LR out now. Thought it would help with the cycling since it was set up on an emergency basis. Filter Media = gravel? *blush* there is some gravel from the DT in there. 20% water changes every other day. I've read you can scrape some goop off from the sump or something to help cycle it? I've got a buncha snails and hermits that look like they're just fine (plus 2 cleaner shrimp and 2 chromis) still in the main tank, but should those be taken out also and quarintined, though they dont show signs of ich? Thank you everyone, the little guy looks alot happier and healthier today than a few days ago!
Alls I meant is that I have gotten much more valid and useful advice on the forums than from the LFS in terms of disease and treatment. Not going to name names, thats not very cool, but not one single place that I talked to about the ich mentioned a QT tank, just different miracle cures that wasted more time and money than just setting up a simple tank for him to get better in.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by violet puff
ok, thanks, taking the LR out now. Thought it would help with the cycling since it was set up on an emergency basis. Filter Media = gravel? *blush* there is some gravel from the DT in there. 20% water changes every other day. I've read you can scrape some goop off from the sump or something to help cycle it? I've got a buncha snails and hermits that look like they're just fine (plus 2 cleaner shrimp and 2 chromis) still in the main tank, but should those be taken out also and quarintined, though they dont show signs of ich? Thank you everyone, the little guy looks alot happier and healthier today than a few days ago!
Alls I meant is that I have gotten much more valid and useful advice on the forums than from the LFS in terms of disease and treatment. Not going to name names, thats not very cool, but not one single place that I talked to about the ich mentioned a QT tank, just different miracle cures that wasted more time and money than just setting up a simple tank for him to get better in.

Your chromis are fish, therefore they are ich hosts. Your inverts cannot host ich. ALL fish have to be treated. By filter media I mean a filter pad. What kind of filters do you have for the DT and the QT. You will have to acclimate the chromis in over 48hrs. Use a bucket.

 

[violet puff]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Your chromis are fish, therefore they are ich hosts. Your inverts cannot host ich. ALL fish have to be treated. By filter media I mean a filter pad. What kind of filters do you have for the DT and the QT. You will have to acclimate the chromis in over 48hrs. Use a bucket.
DT has a large sump with filter pad (would it give good bacteria to use a bit of that pad in the QT?) and LR down in there.. with a coralife skimmer good for up to 125 gallons. In the 10 gallon I have a "bio wheel" filter good for up to 20 gallons which broke 2 minutes after I got it up and running. I was able to jam a power head up into the intake and it works just fine now.. I know it sounds dumb, but I couldnt get back to the store, and its pointed into the corner of the wall so nothings going to get sucked into it... still need to take that back... is that adequate for a messy puffer? Thanks for the tips, will get the chromis out of there.