VHOs
- Thread starter dav
- Start date
T
thomas712
Guest
Greetings and welcome to the board
Are you going to have a reef tank?
If so then have you thought about what kind of corals you would like to keep?
This will make a difference on what lighting I would recommned.
I use VHO over my 90 and I do like them. Unless your going to keep clams or some real stonies then the VHO would be fine for many softies and some hard corals.
If you want to go one better the MH/VHO combo would allow you to keep most anything in the tank.
If VHO I would suggest the 2 actinic by URI and the actinic white/50/50 by URI. URI makes some of the better bulbs for VHO.
135 gallon right. How long is that tank?
Thomas
Are you going to have a reef tank?
If so then have you thought about what kind of corals you would like to keep?
This will make a difference on what lighting I would recommned.
I use VHO over my 90 and I do like them. Unless your going to keep clams or some real stonies then the VHO would be fine for many softies and some hard corals.
If you want to go one better the MH/VHO combo would allow you to keep most anything in the tank.
If VHO I would suggest the 2 actinic by URI and the actinic white/50/50 by URI. URI makes some of the better bulbs for VHO.
135 gallon right. How long is that tank?
Thomas
dav
Member
It's a 6ft. It came with 2 oc clowns, 1marine betta, 1cbs and about 4crabs 3snails. LOTS of lr (piled up to the top & all the way across) and about 1in cc. I have had it since 2-22. The water tests are all good except the nitrates. LFS told me to use tap
they are running about 40-80ppm(this is just about the same as tap) I am going to do a 25g change tonite with ro/di I hope this helps some.
About the lights - I am wanting to (in the future) have some corals (still reading to find which ones) and I have always, always wanted an anenome.
So right now it seems as though I have a really big, empty playground. I love what is in there but I am inpatiently waiting to add more.
Suggestions?? Comments?? About anything you can throw out there will help me.
*filtration* I have bio balls, canister(don't know what kind) and a skimmer.
:happyfish
they are running about 40-80ppm(this is just about the same as tap) I am going to do a 25g change tonite with ro/di I hope this helps some. About the lights - I am wanting to (in the future) have some corals (still reading to find which ones) and I have always, always wanted an anenome.
So right now it seems as though I have a really big, empty playground. I love what is in there but I am inpatiently waiting to add more.
Suggestions?? Comments?? About anything you can throw out there will help me.
*filtration* I have bio balls, canister(don't know what kind) and a skimmer.
:happyfish
T
thomas712
Guest
You could improve your filtration by taking out the crushed coral and replacing it with aragonite sand. This IMO,IME will also do wonders in reducing your nitrate problem. If you were to do that then adding corals will be much easier on them down the road. I also believe that you will like the look much better and you will not have to vaccum the sand.
Sand will give you a much better biological zone, which means better filtration. Sand has more surface area, more surface area means more bacteria.
Crushed coral tends to trap fish waste and uneaten food and caused those high nitrates. Just look at the stuff you vaccum out of the cc.
I prefer a 2 inch sand bed, but many like 4 or more inches (called a DSB or deep sand bed) DSB's have the ability to convert the nitrates into a harmless gas that escapes the aquarium. They convert them using anerobic bacteria deep within the sand bed, this is an oxygen deprived area. I believe that with the right sand you can accomplish this same denitrafication affect (limited) with a shallow sand bed.
you need a plan to lower those nitrates, most popular is the water change using RO/DI water or just DI water, never tap water. There are other ways to lower nitrates such as adding a refugium with macro algeas, reduce feedings, limit the use of frozen foods, active protien skimming.etc...
Is your protein skimmer an in sump model? or hang on?
Thomas
Thomas
Sand will give you a much better biological zone, which means better filtration. Sand has more surface area, more surface area means more bacteria.
Crushed coral tends to trap fish waste and uneaten food and caused those high nitrates. Just look at the stuff you vaccum out of the cc.
I prefer a 2 inch sand bed, but many like 4 or more inches (called a DSB or deep sand bed) DSB's have the ability to convert the nitrates into a harmless gas that escapes the aquarium. They convert them using anerobic bacteria deep within the sand bed, this is an oxygen deprived area. I believe that with the right sand you can accomplish this same denitrafication affect (limited) with a shallow sand bed.
you need a plan to lower those nitrates, most popular is the water change using RO/DI water or just DI water, never tap water. There are other ways to lower nitrates such as adding a refugium with macro algeas, reduce feedings, limit the use of frozen foods, active protien skimming.etc...
Is your protein skimmer an in sump model? or hang on?
Thomas
Thomas
T
thomas712
Guest
Thanks - you will find with beaslbob that most of his over 2000 posts are simply to add plants to your tank and it will take care of everything. Many of us feel this just is not true, because it isn't.
Is the tank really full of rocks to the top? How about side to side or rather fron to back? I'm just wondering how much room you have for the fish to swim. With that much rock what is your circulation like? Do you happen to know what your turnover rate is?
Thomas
Is the tank really full of rocks to the top? How about side to side or rather fron to back? I'm just wondering how much room you have for the fish to swim. With that much rock what is your circulation like? Do you happen to know what your turnover rate is?
Thomas
dav
Member
The rocks - yea - they are side to side within 3"-4" at bottom about 6"-8"away from the sides at the top. Across the top I have 2 hang on "overflow" boxes and 3 power heads 2 attached to stuff at the bottom, 1 was just on there I guess for water movement. The rocks are kinda in a U shape with little caves and caverns. I was not going to put it all in but when I got it all home I didn't really have anything else to do with it. Besides that I liked that they covered up the heaters and the other stuff kinda blends in too.
As far as swimming space I would say there is over 1/2 of the tank and all the places in and behind the rocks. This is where the marine betta swims.
As far as swimming space I would say there is over 1/2 of the tank and all the places in and behind the rocks. This is where the marine betta swims.
dav
Member
The marine betta - he is a really cool fish. We all look forward to when he is out or even looking out. He does hide alot but when he is out it's well worth the wait.
Any suggestions on how to get the cc out and/or what kind of sand to get. What about the sand people talk about from Home Depot?? Some of that maybe and some live. Don't really know what exactly to do. Looking for suggestions. PLEASE!!
Any suggestions on how to get the cc out and/or what kind of sand to get. What about the sand people talk about from Home Depot?? Some of that maybe and some live. Don't really know what exactly to do. Looking for suggestions. PLEASE!!
T
thomas712
Guest
Ok this wil be long winded but I came up with this some time ago. The directions can be modified for switching as its only one way to do it.
If you can find a way just to vaccume it or syphon your cc out then perhaps with the size tank you have it might be easier. Just syphon it out with a regular rubber hose and keep replacing the water that gets syphoned out and put it back intot he aquarium, effort should be made to get as much out as possible, mixing sand and cc is not a good idea.
Here goes:
Why change from CC to SSB or DSB?
Most of us will not use crushed coral because it is a large substrate that traps the fish waste and uneaten food that has to be vacuumed before it creates nitrates, which it will anyway. Crushed coral does not provide a very good biological zone, and many tanks are setup with CC from the get go through lack of knowledge or because it is the only substrate that an LFS sells and tells you that it is all you need, using a selling point of CC has buffering power. I have personally battled nitrates over 100 ppm during my days of CC and UGF doing frequent large water changes. So many of us have been there and had high nitrates, did a water change to lower them and they were back in a couple of days. CC has sharp edges, which is undesirable for inverts, like anemones walking around, pods or worms. No getting around it CC is high maintenance and can lead to poor water quality, frequent maintenance, sick livestock, algae blooms and more.
Sand on the other hand has more benefits. These include having far more surface area thereby making it able to handle a higher bio load of bacteria. It is less dangerous to your infauna and has a more natural look in the tank. If going with a DSB Deep Sand Bed you can have other benefits as well like finishing the denitrification or providing sand sifting, burrowing, or tunneling fish and critters a place to play. The denitrification process predominantly occurs in deeper substrates and in areas of stagnant flow where oxygen levels are depressed. And this is why deep sand beds are effective as a nitrogen export mechanism. As water slowly diffuses deeper, aerobic organisms strip all available oxygen for respiration. In the deep, oxygen-deprived layers, denitrifying anaerobes are given the opportunity to convert nitrogen compounds into nitrogenous gases, which escape via tiny bubble out of the aquarium. I believe this process can also work on a limited basis in shallow sand beds. My sand bed is no more than 2 inches deep in some spots.
So what sand do I use to build my sand bed?
The answer here is aragonite sand. Many hobbyists have found that Southdown, Yard right or its apparent new name of old castle sand works very well for reef aquariums. This is due to it being calcium carbonate based, and with an excellent grain sizes makes for a good functioning sand bed. 1/8mm is very fine> 1/256mm to 1/16mm is considered silt, and less that> 1/256mm is considered clay.
Southdown seems to mostly contains very fine to silt size particles, and maybe a few larger than 1/8mm.
Other aragonite sands are available through many LFS. If it is aragonite it is good.
The trick here is to make sure that it is aragonite and not calcite sand as many different minerals have identical chemical formulas but wildly different properties. Aragonite is orthorhombic crystal and calcite is rhobehedral, scalenohedral or prismatic crystals
This means they have a different arrangement of atoms giving them different properties of density, solubility, hardness etc. They also tend to incorporate different trace elements, based on what best fits into their different crystal structures. Aragonite will substitute larger atoms such as strontium. Calcite grabs magnesium and iron. Aragonite’s properties are much more beneficial in a closed system.
It also seems that many have used Quick Crete play sand with success though it is not calcium carbonate based, but silica based instead. No this does not mean that you will have silicates in your tank.
Very Generally speaking Silica sand, lets say industrial style is a high purity quartz (SiO2) sand. Silica is a stable compound and will not leach silicates into your tank for it has no "sillicates in it. Depending on its chemical and physical characteristics, silica sand is used as glass sand, foundry sand, abrasives ..etc. Silica sand can contain tiny amounts of impurities, such as iron, manganese, chromium, calcium, or aluminum, and give the sand its color depending on how much of these impurities are contained within. So it depends on geographically where your silica sand comes from as to how much impurities it contains. If you are going to use silica sand look for white silica sand as it is much more aesthetically pleasing
A warning about silica crystals:
Silicosis is a disabling, nonreversible and sometimes fatal lung disease caused by overexposure to respirable crystalline silica. More than one million U.S. workers are exposed to crystalline silica, and each year more than 250 die from silicosis. There is no cure for the disease, but it is 100 percent preventable if employers, workers, and health professionals work together to reduce exposures.
So in other words do not breath this dust. FYI there is also a warning label required by the state of California that is required on silica play sand.
Ways to test sand to see if you might be able to use it in your aquarium:
Take a sample of your sand and test some of the sand with vinegar. If it bubbles/dissolves, it is calcium carbonate sand and should be safe to use.
Take some sand and pass a magnet over it or in it, it might come out with little metal shavings from processing, if it does I would not use it. Though I have heard of some who have with little poor effects. Iron can actually be a fertilizer for macro algae.
What steps should I take to change my Crushed coral to a Sand Bed?
This is project that can take some time and effort, I therefore believe that one of the safest methods is to find temporary homes for any fish and corals until you have completed the change.
You will need one or more containers like Rubbermaid bins to house your fish and one for your live rock and corals, this will also mean having enough heaters (if in the north) and power heads to keep things warm and circulating. I would also recommend saving much of the water from the existing tank without disturbing the crushed coral substrate yet. You will also need to make some fresh saltwater as if you were doing a water change which in essence you will be.
If using dry sand:
So here we go – Step 1: Remove any existing rocks, corals, fish, and other inverts to their temporary homes using the existing water from the tank, and save much of the water left if possible. Make sure that any existing filter material containing your bacteria bed be kept wet and circulating if possible, this will help prevent severe spikes from the change, or at least keep them to a minimum.
Step 2. Remove the crushed coral. This can be a mess depending on how your CC was maintained; there could be plenty of evil waste and fouled water here. Now here if you wish or need to you can save some of this CC to seed your sand bed by placing it in nylons and making some CC nylon balls 6 or 8 should be plenty.
Step 3. With the tank empty its time to do a complete cleaning of the inside of the tank, scrape off that old algae, check the silicone seems for any problems.
Step 4. (optional) My preference here is to place a layer of egg crate down on the bottom of the tank making sure that it is still an inch or two away from the sides of the glass. This way the egg crate will help to prevent any reefalanche that may happen. Some will build a PVC stand to place the rocks on so that the sand bed will not cover several inches of expensive live rock. Others will use cheap base rock and place the live rock on top of that.
Step 5. With the egg crate, PVC stands, or bare bottom tank in place. Place a layer of sand down, about 1 inch. Then start to aquasacpe using your rocks that you will place on the bottom of the sand bed, twist the rock in a little to help stabilize it. Then pour the rest of the sand in.
Step 6. Slowly add your water, the speed at which you do this may depend on if you have some corals in the first pieces of live rock that you placed in your tank, but for the most part the slower the better, this may help to reduce cloudiness.
Options include using all dry sand, all live sand, mix of both. If you can get your hands on the Southdown then that is what I would use.
will cause a nitrate spike, as waste is stirred up.
You may also experience another cycle...to what extent is unknown. It could be a mini cycle, it could be more dramatic.
If you can find a way just to vaccume it or syphon your cc out then perhaps with the size tank you have it might be easier. Just syphon it out with a regular rubber hose and keep replacing the water that gets syphoned out and put it back intot he aquarium, effort should be made to get as much out as possible, mixing sand and cc is not a good idea.
Here goes:
Why change from CC to SSB or DSB?
Most of us will not use crushed coral because it is a large substrate that traps the fish waste and uneaten food that has to be vacuumed before it creates nitrates, which it will anyway. Crushed coral does not provide a very good biological zone, and many tanks are setup with CC from the get go through lack of knowledge or because it is the only substrate that an LFS sells and tells you that it is all you need, using a selling point of CC has buffering power. I have personally battled nitrates over 100 ppm during my days of CC and UGF doing frequent large water changes. So many of us have been there and had high nitrates, did a water change to lower them and they were back in a couple of days. CC has sharp edges, which is undesirable for inverts, like anemones walking around, pods or worms. No getting around it CC is high maintenance and can lead to poor water quality, frequent maintenance, sick livestock, algae blooms and more.
Sand on the other hand has more benefits. These include having far more surface area thereby making it able to handle a higher bio load of bacteria. It is less dangerous to your infauna and has a more natural look in the tank. If going with a DSB Deep Sand Bed you can have other benefits as well like finishing the denitrification or providing sand sifting, burrowing, or tunneling fish and critters a place to play. The denitrification process predominantly occurs in deeper substrates and in areas of stagnant flow where oxygen levels are depressed. And this is why deep sand beds are effective as a nitrogen export mechanism. As water slowly diffuses deeper, aerobic organisms strip all available oxygen for respiration. In the deep, oxygen-deprived layers, denitrifying anaerobes are given the opportunity to convert nitrogen compounds into nitrogenous gases, which escape via tiny bubble out of the aquarium. I believe this process can also work on a limited basis in shallow sand beds. My sand bed is no more than 2 inches deep in some spots.
So what sand do I use to build my sand bed?
The answer here is aragonite sand. Many hobbyists have found that Southdown, Yard right or its apparent new name of old castle sand works very well for reef aquariums. This is due to it being calcium carbonate based, and with an excellent grain sizes makes for a good functioning sand bed. 1/8mm is very fine> 1/256mm to 1/16mm is considered silt, and less that> 1/256mm is considered clay.
Southdown seems to mostly contains very fine to silt size particles, and maybe a few larger than 1/8mm.
Other aragonite sands are available through many LFS. If it is aragonite it is good.
The trick here is to make sure that it is aragonite and not calcite sand as many different minerals have identical chemical formulas but wildly different properties. Aragonite is orthorhombic crystal and calcite is rhobehedral, scalenohedral or prismatic crystals
This means they have a different arrangement of atoms giving them different properties of density, solubility, hardness etc. They also tend to incorporate different trace elements, based on what best fits into their different crystal structures. Aragonite will substitute larger atoms such as strontium. Calcite grabs magnesium and iron. Aragonite’s properties are much more beneficial in a closed system.
It also seems that many have used Quick Crete play sand with success though it is not calcium carbonate based, but silica based instead. No this does not mean that you will have silicates in your tank.
Very Generally speaking Silica sand, lets say industrial style is a high purity quartz (SiO2) sand. Silica is a stable compound and will not leach silicates into your tank for it has no "sillicates in it. Depending on its chemical and physical characteristics, silica sand is used as glass sand, foundry sand, abrasives ..etc. Silica sand can contain tiny amounts of impurities, such as iron, manganese, chromium, calcium, or aluminum, and give the sand its color depending on how much of these impurities are contained within. So it depends on geographically where your silica sand comes from as to how much impurities it contains. If you are going to use silica sand look for white silica sand as it is much more aesthetically pleasing
A warning about silica crystals:
Silicosis is a disabling, nonreversible and sometimes fatal lung disease caused by overexposure to respirable crystalline silica. More than one million U.S. workers are exposed to crystalline silica, and each year more than 250 die from silicosis. There is no cure for the disease, but it is 100 percent preventable if employers, workers, and health professionals work together to reduce exposures.
So in other words do not breath this dust. FYI there is also a warning label required by the state of California that is required on silica play sand.
Ways to test sand to see if you might be able to use it in your aquarium:
Take a sample of your sand and test some of the sand with vinegar. If it bubbles/dissolves, it is calcium carbonate sand and should be safe to use.
Take some sand and pass a magnet over it or in it, it might come out with little metal shavings from processing, if it does I would not use it. Though I have heard of some who have with little poor effects. Iron can actually be a fertilizer for macro algae.
What steps should I take to change my Crushed coral to a Sand Bed?
This is project that can take some time and effort, I therefore believe that one of the safest methods is to find temporary homes for any fish and corals until you have completed the change.
You will need one or more containers like Rubbermaid bins to house your fish and one for your live rock and corals, this will also mean having enough heaters (if in the north) and power heads to keep things warm and circulating. I would also recommend saving much of the water from the existing tank without disturbing the crushed coral substrate yet. You will also need to make some fresh saltwater as if you were doing a water change which in essence you will be.
If using dry sand:
So here we go – Step 1: Remove any existing rocks, corals, fish, and other inverts to their temporary homes using the existing water from the tank, and save much of the water left if possible. Make sure that any existing filter material containing your bacteria bed be kept wet and circulating if possible, this will help prevent severe spikes from the change, or at least keep them to a minimum.
Step 2. Remove the crushed coral. This can be a mess depending on how your CC was maintained; there could be plenty of evil waste and fouled water here. Now here if you wish or need to you can save some of this CC to seed your sand bed by placing it in nylons and making some CC nylon balls 6 or 8 should be plenty.
Step 3. With the tank empty its time to do a complete cleaning of the inside of the tank, scrape off that old algae, check the silicone seems for any problems.
Step 4. (optional) My preference here is to place a layer of egg crate down on the bottom of the tank making sure that it is still an inch or two away from the sides of the glass. This way the egg crate will help to prevent any reefalanche that may happen. Some will build a PVC stand to place the rocks on so that the sand bed will not cover several inches of expensive live rock. Others will use cheap base rock and place the live rock on top of that.
Step 5. With the egg crate, PVC stands, or bare bottom tank in place. Place a layer of sand down, about 1 inch. Then start to aquasacpe using your rocks that you will place on the bottom of the sand bed, twist the rock in a little to help stabilize it. Then pour the rest of the sand in.
Step 6. Slowly add your water, the speed at which you do this may depend on if you have some corals in the first pieces of live rock that you placed in your tank, but for the most part the slower the better, this may help to reduce cloudiness.
Options include using all dry sand, all live sand, mix of both. If you can get your hands on the Southdown then that is what I would use.
will cause a nitrate spike, as waste is stirred up.
You may also experience another cycle...to what extent is unknown. It could be a mini cycle, it could be more dramatic.