Water Change
- Thread starter trigger78
- Start date
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
oh boy did you touch a nerve 
this is one of the most conterversal topics here along with tap water.
How do you do it simple you don't change the water.
I maintain all my tanks without water changes fresh and salt and have for years. longest time was 6 years in salt. I do also believe in using plants to establish a balanced ecosystem. My freshwater tanks are sand, water, plants, and livestock. Not even an air stone for circulation.
My position is that water changes will delay but not correct anything building up or being depleted in the system. It's better to find out what the problem is and correct that. Also that by not changing the water you have all parameters more constant. And that results in a better environment.
this is one of the most conterversal topics here along with tap water.How do you do it simple you don't change the water.
I maintain all my tanks without water changes fresh and salt and have for years. longest time was 6 years in salt. I do also believe in using plants to establish a balanced ecosystem. My freshwater tanks are sand, water, plants, and livestock. Not even an air stone for circulation.
My position is that water changes will delay but not correct anything building up or being depleted in the system. It's better to find out what the problem is and correct that. Also that by not changing the water you have all parameters more constant. And that results in a better environment.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Well if you think about the ocean and reefs - they are getting regular HUGE water changes .... there is no way
To echo Bang Guy's sentiment - a lack of water changes will cause a build-up of "stuff" in your water.
Frequent regular water changes also increase your trace elements without the need for buffering and should not have to buy a bunch of test kits.
Frequent regular water changes - which are mixed and aireated properly will help kepe the o2 levels up in your tank as well.
Frequent/regular water changes export pollutants in your tank. So you can get rid of harmful chemicals which can build up over time in your tank.
I think the key is doing the water change properly:
1. Get RO or RO/DI water and aireate it for 24 hours
2. Add Salt mix
3. Aireate/mix the water and salt with a heater.
4. Verify PH, Salinity and temp is equal to the tank
5. Complete the change in a timely manner.
Good Luck
To echo Bang Guy's sentiment - a lack of water changes will cause a build-up of "stuff" in your water.
Frequent regular water changes also increase your trace elements without the need for buffering and should not have to buy a bunch of test kits.
Frequent regular water changes - which are mixed and aireated properly will help kepe the o2 levels up in your tank as well.
Frequent/regular water changes export pollutants in your tank. So you can get rid of harmful chemicals which can build up over time in your tank.
I think the key is doing the water change properly:
1. Get RO or RO/DI water and aireate it for 24 hours
2. Add Salt mix
3. Aireate/mix the water and salt with a heater.
4. Verify PH, Salinity and temp is equal to the tank
5. Complete the change in a timely manner.
Good Luck
trigger78
Member
Thanks. I'm just curious how it is possible to keep a healthy quarium without doing water changes. I know I'm not experienced enough to try it right now but it is something to consider in the future. Has anyone that doesn't change thier water used mangrove? If so, what steps did you take and are there any other plants to consider using. Thanks all.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
I have never used mangroves but any plant life which keeps nitrates in check should be fine. And all plants keep nitrAtes in check. Mangroves do grow outta the water so would be a good choice in a seperate container/refugium where a mangrove forest could be very pretty.
I currently have kelp and feather caulpera, gracilliera, brillo pad, shaving brush, mermaid's fan, rope, and hermedia macros. Plus turtle grass which is an actual rooted marine plant. Additionally, I have a maroon macro which is striking. The gracilleria and brillo pad are in the refugium and the others are in either the display and a macro algae culture tank.
With the exception of the hermedia, all seem to do well under low lighting. The hermedia is supposed to need calcium and more light. the refugium stuff is less plant like, more weed like and I feel is less attractive in the display. They do fill the refugium nicely and provide lotsa area for pods to grow.
I do test for various stuff but do not agree that no water changes with plants is for the experienced hobbiest. It has been my experience that a naturally balanced and filtered system, with plants, tap water and no water changes, is the system which requires the least maintenance. And it is extremely easy to set up. Basically, you take care of the plants and they take care of the rest.
I currently have kelp and feather caulpera, gracilliera, brillo pad, shaving brush, mermaid's fan, rope, and hermedia macros. Plus turtle grass which is an actual rooted marine plant. Additionally, I have a maroon macro which is striking. The gracilleria and brillo pad are in the refugium and the others are in either the display and a macro algae culture tank.
With the exception of the hermedia, all seem to do well under low lighting. The hermedia is supposed to need calcium and more light. the refugium stuff is less plant like, more weed like and I feel is less attractive in the display. They do fill the refugium nicely and provide lotsa area for pods to grow.
I do test for various stuff but do not agree that no water changes with plants is for the experienced hobbiest. It has been my experience that a naturally balanced and filtered system, with plants, tap water and no water changes, is the system which requires the least maintenance. And it is extremely easy to set up. Basically, you take care of the plants and they take care of the rest.
bang guy
Moderator
Originally posted by beaslbob
The hermedia is supposed to need calcium and more light.
That would be Halimeda sp.
I only mention this in case someone wants to search on it. I consider it one of the few Macro algaes that are safe for a reef display tank.
I believe the odds of success decline grotesquely when an inexperienced hobbiest refrains from water changes. I believe the odds would be even lower using tap water for topoff.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Bang Guy
That would be Halimeda sp.
I only mention this in case someone wants to search on it. I consider it one of the few Macro algaes that are safe for a reef display tank.
thanks bang. I needed that
I believe the odds of success decline grotesquely when an inexperienced hobbiest refrains from water changes. I believe the odds would be even lower using tap water for topoff.
I respectifully disagree. Water changes especially by inexperienced hobbiest cause more problems then they cure.
torrancejones
Member
beaslbob,
You say that this particular plant (Halimeda) needs lots of calcium. How do you make sure the calcium levels are ok for the plants? Is there some sort of test kit for this? Also, would the same process you use to administer calcium for this type of plant work for other types of animals that need calcium... im just curious.
-- Tor
You say that this particular plant (Halimeda) needs lots of calcium. How do you make sure the calcium levels are ok for the plants? Is there some sort of test kit for this? Also, would the same process you use to administer calcium for this type of plant work for other types of animals that need calcium... im just curious.
-- Tor
reefnut
Active Member
Originally posted by TorranceJones
beaslbob,
You say that this particular plant (Halimeda) needs lots of calcium. How do you make sure the calcium levels are ok for the plants? Is there some sort of test kit for this? Also, would the same process you use to administer calcium for this type of plant work for other types of animals that need calcium... im just curious.
-- Tor
Your asking the wrong person. Bob thinks his tank is getting calcium from the CC he put in his fuge lol along with getting trace elements from his tap water
. Sorry... Second the salifert test kits! They are very good. A two part alk/calcium additive is probably the easiest to start with.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by SquishyFish
...
Keeper will attempt to maintain a stable tank via any natural means avaliable while also understanding that metals Do Not Evaporate and therefore must be removed by water changes. To ignore this can only mean unnessisary stress on an already delicate eco system.
JMO
Squishy
FYI Plants remove heavy metals in saltwater tanks. Just as plants are used to detoxify toxic waste sites and in sewage treatment systems.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by TorranceJones
beaslbob,
You say that this particular plant (Halimeda) needs lots of calcium. How do you make sure the calcium levels are ok for the plants? Is there some sort of test kit for this? Also, would the same process you use to administer calcium for this type of plant work for other types of animals that need calcium... im just curious.
-- Tor
As stated above calcium can be tested for and dosed. Most plants do not need that much calcium. If there is not enough calcium for the halimeda it will get white and grow slower. The other plants will grow and thrive with much less calcium. Halimeda just uses more calcium is all.
I my system I use tap water. replacing evaporation also replace the trace elements in tap including calcium. I also use sand with CC on top and as reef stated I just added crushed oyster shells to the CC in a filter box in my refugium. I also just upgraded my refug pump from a powerhead to a mag 5. Still too early to tell but things seem to be doing ok. If i get more long term results then I will report them here with the numbers.
overanalyzer
Active Member
Originally posted by Trigger78
Thanks. I'm just curious how it is possible to keep a healthy quarium without doing water changes.
Pick one - you can't have both. Now you can eventually get to the point of longer periods between water changes (providing you use purified replacement water, test your levels, keep a close eye on your tank and have multiple visual indicators) but I do not think you could have a healthy aquarium and never do a water change on it.
Bob - what are your latest test numbers for Calcium out of curiosity?? (your crushed oyster shells experiment has me curious)....
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by overanalyzer
....
Bob - what are your latest test numbers for Calcium out of curiosity?? (your crushed oyster shells experiment has me curious)....
Actually it is more old school than experimental. And too early to tell. basically I added a refugium with filter box with CC in the box. Under a slow moving powerhead Calcium slowly went up from250-300 to ~350. Got a more accurate test kit and added a mag 5 pump pumping lotsa water. Ca went up to ~ 450. Then back down to ~ 320 or so as the filter box broke and leaked so most of the water was not moving over the CC. I repaired the box and added crushed oyster shells. Initial tests are again ~430-450. througout this ph stayed at 8.2-8.4. Again too early to tell if this was just a temporary bump up or more long term. thanks for the interest will report later.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by SquishyFish
That is the first I have ever heard of that. I will have to do a little research before I'll buy it. I have always been taught that the only way to remove heavy metals is via water changes. As far as detoxifying waste...that doesnt nessisarily address the "heavy metals" ...it just means that it addresses an aspect of the toxisity. (sp?) Sorry, but I have a hard time believing they remove the H/m...but then again, I'm wrong frequently.
Squishy
I had the same expereience when I reentered salt tank about a year ago. Thank God I had been maintaining fresh natural balanced and filtered tanks. Because of that I was asking about plants from day 1. I got the same type of answers and concerns you expressed here. Finally, after three months a person stated that if I was real lucky I might get some macro algae on one of my live rocks. So I started researching macro algaes and was very suprised what I found. I know you will find the same.
Now consider this. I had a 20g long that went from 160ppm+nitrates to 0.0 nitrates in three weeks. No circulation just macros and a 3/16" baby molly. The molly grew to 2" in three months with no food being added to the tank. If I had relied on water changes with 0.0 nitrAte water 10% per week:
week nitrates nitrates removed resulting
1 160 16 144
2 144 14.4 129.6
3 129.6 12.96 116.04
So 10% weekly water changes would result in 116 ppm nitrates whereas plant life resulted in 0.0. I hope you understand now where I am comming from. Heavy metals follow the same type of removal again assumming you have replacement water with 0.0 heavy metals. You will never remove totally heavy metals by weekly partial water changes. With a biologically active tank the best you can do is have nitrates which follow a saw tooth where nitrates rise between water changes and the suddenly drop after the water change. By adding plant life as the third step (after adding sand and saltwater) the system startes out by continuously filtering the water. After the plants are established and growing you have a very strong indication the system is heathy and ready for the rest of the setup. By not establishing plants as the first thing, you have algae blooms, ph problems, the possibility of screwing up water changes and a host of maintenance problems. With plants all the nitrates in tap water do is result in stronger plant growth. And you do all that without the need for anaerobic bacteria (DSB) or special lighting (NO's are fine).
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by SquishyFish
...
But you seem to be combining this concept w/ heavy metals.
specifically that plants filter out heavy metals. They do not have to benifit just filter them out. that filtering is well documented as you will find you when you research the plants.
...
As far as establishing a tank w/ plants to prevent "New Tank Syndrome"...They may be a benificial addition, but to say that plants alone solve most/all of the problems that a new tank faces is ludicris.
As I stated this is an extremely hard concept to understand. New tank syndrome is not eliminated. Just made much easier to manage.
...
The "possiblity of screwing up water changes" is greatly reduced by using r/o water or water purchased from a LFS (tested before put into the tank first obviously)
And it is totally eliminated by not doing the waterchanges to begin with.
You also stated "you do all of this w/o need of anaerobic bacteria." Why would you want to try to get around the natural filtration built into the system?
I don't. I just prefer aerobic to anerobic
I agree that plants can be benificial...but I disagree w/ almost everything else you have said. I understand your interest in your experiments...but to pass this along to a newbie as something that should be done or is nessisary for a healthy tank, I feel is irresponsible at best.
Squishy
Edit: oh, If your saying that NO lighting is all that is needed in any reef tank...
I am not saying that. I said that $500.00 worth of lighting is not needed to support the plants.
What is irresponsible is not passing on time honered and proven techniques. The newbie deserves better.
...
But you seem to be combining this concept w/ heavy metals.
specifically that plants filter out heavy metals. They do not have to benifit just filter them out. that filtering is well documented as you will find you when you research the plants.
...
As far as establishing a tank w/ plants to prevent "New Tank Syndrome"...They may be a benificial addition, but to say that plants alone solve most/all of the problems that a new tank faces is ludicris.
As I stated this is an extremely hard concept to understand. New tank syndrome is not eliminated. Just made much easier to manage.
...
The "possiblity of screwing up water changes" is greatly reduced by using r/o water or water purchased from a LFS (tested before put into the tank first obviously)
And it is totally eliminated by not doing the waterchanges to begin with.
You also stated "you do all of this w/o need of anaerobic bacteria." Why would you want to try to get around the natural filtration built into the system?
I don't. I just prefer aerobic to anerobic
I agree that plants can be benificial...but I disagree w/ almost everything else you have said. I understand your interest in your experiments...but to pass this along to a newbie as something that should be done or is nessisary for a healthy tank, I feel is irresponsible at best.
Squishy
Edit: oh, If your saying that NO lighting is all that is needed in any reef tank...
I am not saying that. I said that $500.00 worth of lighting is not needed to support the plants.
What is irresponsible is not passing on time honered and proven techniques. The newbie deserves better.