Water Levels

[sntanner]

I have had my tank functional since Christmas Eve. The specs of the tank are below (sorry if I missed any details). We started out with 5 damsels, two of them were black with a white spot on their face, one black and white striped damsel, and two navy blue fish with yellow tails. We lost one of the black with white spots within 24 hrs., the other in the next two days. A week later, we lost the striped one, leaving the two blue fish with yellow tails. Both of them lasted for almost 3 weeks. We got two clownfish, and 2 days later, one of the blue fish with yellow tails didn't make it. So we are down the the three fish.
Of course we do not want to lose any more fish, but it is part of the salt water tank routine. I'm concerned that my real problem is with the chemical levels. Each time I contact the local aquarium store, they tell me that I should just continue to do the 10% water changes once a week, and that should help to correct some of the levels that are of more concern. Now that I have done 3 water changes since putting the tank in, I have what I see as a baseline for some things, and I am concerned that I am not doing what I should be, to correct these. Is there something else I need to be doing, than just the 10% change a week?
Note that the water temp has been a steady 77-78 degrees.
Target->0.007.6?0.00??
DateNitriteNitratePHAmmoniaAlkalinity
4-Jan0.3208.00.25High
11-Jan0.1158.40.25High
18-Jan0.1508.60.25High
26 Gall
1 damsel
2 clownfish
9 snails
2 shrimp
1 crab (one died, leaving one)
8 lbs. live rock
2 bags coarse substrate with 1 bag of fine substrate on surface.
Top filter with directional flow, no protein skimmer.
Algae reduces at each water change, but returns in force after a week.
Thank you for any help you can provide.
Sean

 

[birdy]

It doesn't sound like you ever let your tank fully cycle. Loosing fish is not a routine part of keeping saltwater fish. Did your Ammonia and Nitrite levels ever reach 0? If not you need to stop doing water changes it is keeping your tank from finishing cycling. Your levels should drop to 0. Also do not add any more fish. Algae is a normal part of a new tank, but if you are not using RO or distilled water you will have problems with too much nutrients in the water.

 

[flamingkingofhe]

you need to let your tank cycle your fish are croacking because the water is not good enough yet

 

[sntanner]

Thank you both for your help. It is amazing to me that the answers I get from the aquarium store differ so much from what I find out here. A concern that I have, though, is that each time I did a 10% water change, the level of algae improved very much, and it seems that it is the ONLY thing that is heping to keep it under control. It grows so fast on days 4, 5 & 6 of the week (on a 7 day water change schedule), that I can't see how I can get enough of a contribution from the clean up crew to maintain the algae level properly. The attached photo shows how much algae currently exists. You can see it best on the substrate, but it is growing almost wildly on everything except the glass. Is this a problem? And does it change your advice regarding not doing water changes? If this is the case, what should I do? I'm willing to try letting the water sit for (what?) 3 weeks more without changes, but I just want to be sure that all of these other issues are handled, if necessary. Thanks again!

 

[sntanner]

I was not told originally that I should be using any particular type of water, so I started the tank off with tap water, but not from inside the house because we have a water softener. The outer spickets are not hooked up to the softener, so we thought that would be better, and that is what we have continued to use for the water changes. I put roughly 3 gallons of water into a bucket, and add the salt. After a while I test the water for the salt content, and let the water sit for a day, inside, before I siphon and replace. This is the first time I have heard to use distilled water, which is yet one more reason I am questioning how I am doing things.
An interesting thing to note, is that the algae grew, and grew very quickly, over a period of the last 3 days. Today? We woke up and it looks like the cleaning crew did an oustanding job on it. That was nice to see, but I will be keeping a very close eye on it, particularly if we wind up not doing a water change for a while.
Oh, regarding the ammonia. I was thinking about this last night, and isn't the amount of ammonia affected by fish waste? In the directions for the test kit, it says to reduce the feeding when the ammonia levels are higher than desired. If we do not do water changes, and reduce the feedings, would this still be the right thing to do? Wouldn't the ammonia levels get worse, and not better, if fish waste is an ammonia contributor?
I'm so confuuuuuuused!!!! You guys are great! I really appreciate the help. I'm normally scheduled to do a water change today, according to my previous advisors, but I want to nail this down today, because if I have to do a water change, today is the day.
Thanks!!!!!

 

[newreefers]

Do a search on the board for cycling a tank. This will give you much info. The brown algae you are seeing in normal during the cycle. If you keep doing water changes during the cycle, you will just prolong it. Keep the water topped off using RO water. Damsels are pretty hardy fish, so they should be ok, also clowns are in the damsel family as well. Before doing anything else your lfs tells you, check on the board. You will get much better advise, and we are not trying to get into your wallet. There are so many people with so much experience on this bb, undoubtably someone else has had the same problem you do and can tell you how to fix it.
Since you are just starting out, I suggest you get some books and read, read, read. This bb is also full of good info.
Good Luck

 

[jtroutine]

I wouldnt ever use fish to cycle a tank!!! That is why they are dying. My suggetion would have been to by some cocktail shrimp. What happens is the shrimp leaves ammonia from it decaying kind of yucky but a lot better then making these wonderful animals live in harsh conditions or worse die. Just my two cents.

 

[javatech]

Take a look here
http://www.simplifiedreefkeeping.com/faq/faq.htm

 

[pyro383]

Ok, lets slow down and take it step by step. You indicated that on 12/24 you set up your tank and put water in it correct.
I will try to detail step by step and anyone else can chime in. (Note: Try to return the fish before you kill any more of them, usually the store will hold them for you until you are ready)
1) What is your goal?
a) Fish only (FO)
b) Fish only with live rock (FOWLR)
c) Fish only with live rock and live sand (FOWLR/LS)
d) Reef tank with the fish, live rock and live sand
your answer probably is fish with rock and sand seeing the rock and sand in there. In time the rock (in not truely live, it will become under certain circumstances along with the sand.
So lets assume you want live rock and sand. Make the sand bed at least 4-5 inches deep. It is easier to do that now.
2) Read the definitions sticky in the beginners section so you understand the terminology.
3) Post here you answer to #1 and then I will go to the next step.

 

[sntanner]

This is so nice, and patient of you! I also liked seeing the "Simplified Reef Keeping" Site, as well.
My goal is to stabilize my tank's environment, with
b) FOWLR.
I have no idea if the sand BECOMES live after the ecosystem matures, but it is not something that I strive to achieve. I just won't deny it if Live Sand becomes a reality.
I've tried to find this "beginner's section" that you mentioned, but I can't find it at this site. I seem to remember stumbling on it right around the New Year, but I've never been able to find it since.
Thanks again for your help. Oh, I just tested the water again. Here are the results:
1/20/03-
Nitrite - .1 (about the same)
Nitrate- 20 (was 50)
PH- 8.6 (Was 8.0 when I started the tank, and steadily rose)
Ammonia- .25 (hasn't ever changed)
Alkalinity- High (hasn't ever changed)
I did NOT perform the water change, and probably will not, since the water I've used to date is tap water.

 

[birdy]

Sand does become live after a while if you have plenty of LR, the sand will become seeded with benificial bacteria and plenty of worms and creatures to work the sand bed, but it does speed the process to add live sand initially.
You said you have some coarse substrate is it crushed coral or just a larger type of sand? I would recommend a sand bed of 4-5". This will be a large part of your biological filtration. Then you should try to get around 1-1.5lbs of live rock this not only looks more natural it too helps with biological filtration.
I would then recommend that you get a skimmer.
Start using RO or distilled water as you do water changes, this will help with the algae, but be aware, algae is a natural part of the cycling process and you will get several different types. Keep your photoperiod down and it will not get too bad.
I still believe you never let your tank fully cycle and you should not do a water change. you will eventually see a decline in ammonia, and nitrites, and the nitrates should stay below 20.

 

[sntanner]

The coarse material is crushed shells, and possibly coral, but not live. Based upon the recommendation of the person I spoke to at the Pet Store, I put 2 bags of this substrate in, which probably covers the bottom by 3". On top of that, I put Aragonite (1 bag), which is probably about another 3".
I will pick up some distilled water tomorrow, and start adding that in, and eliminate the water changes for now. I am not afraid of the algae, as long as we know that the water will not kill the animals as a result of the algae growing like it has. Fortunately, the cleanup crew is doing its job on the algae for now, and I feel comfortable knowing that they are provided with plenty of food.
Most of what I am hearing is that the tank needs to finish cycling. That's fine with me. I'll keep checking the chemical levels every other day or so, just to keep an eye on it.
Thanks again!

 

[sntanner]

Well, the algae is somewhat taken care of over each night, but it looks to be getting thicker each day, more quickly than the previous days. Still, the fish look to be thriving, which is wonderful to see. I had to top off the water with some distilled water. I added a gallon. The salt meter was on the high end of acceptable, so I did not add any salt to the distilled water, and added it slowly. I remember reading that when the chemicals are not right, a high salt content of the water is detrimental. Not that I believe everything I read, but I really don't have much of a choice right now. I have not had the chance to check the levels over the past couple of days, so I plan on doing that tomorrow.
In any case, I guess I am still looking for confident validation that refraining from doing water changes is the right thing to do. I hope to see the levels start to improve. I just purchased a Bak Pak protein skimmer at ----, so I plan on having that within the next week and a half. I hope that will help with the Nitrate levels. I have NO idea if that will relieve any of the problems with the Ammonia or Nitrite levels, or any of the other levels, for that matte.

 

[m.rogers]

sntanner i was one of them people that got bad info. from my lfs (local fish store) to. i would say that the people here will help you more then your lfs not saying that all store are like your . i would look for some more lfs around where you live here is a site that can help fins.actwin.com look in the directories. do not do any water changes till your cycle is done and i would not let the algae worry you it will get better as the cycle gettes better. just hang i there and the people on this site will help you though it all just look at some of there tank and you can see they know what they are talking about good luck
mike

 

[beefcake]

Your ammonia levels never got over .25 ? Seems like your ammonia levels never spiked because you kept changing water. I dunno but I'm cycling my tank now and my Ammonia levels are over 5 right now. Each tank is different but that just seems awfully low to me.

 

[jarvis]

When you say top filter, what is this a bio wheel or something else? If you can tell us what brand and model. We could tell you if it is a sufficent filter.

 

[sntanner]

Thanks for the new sites, and helpful words. I just checked the levels again yesterday, and here are the results (no, the ammonia levels have not changed since I started testing):
DateNitriteNitratePHAmmoniaAlkalinity
4-Jan0.3208.00.25High
11-Jan0.1158.40.25High
18-Jan0.1508.60.25High
20-Jan0.1208.60.25High
25-Jan0.1508.40.25High
It is nice to know that the algae problems will not last forever. I don't mind leaving it looking this unbelievabley dirty (see photo below). As long as I know it isn't further contaminating the water, which sounds like this is the correct assumption. I was, however, hoping that I would see SOME change, for the better, in the chemical levels since I stopped doing water changes (the last water change I did was on Jan. 18th. I will continue to trust, and be patient. I hope to see some changes soon. I understand that the CPR Bak Pak should help, at least with the Nitrates. Let me know if I need to be doing something else, other than just topping off with Distilled Water (I check the salt content of the tank first, to determine if I need to add salt to the Distilled Water before adding it, or not).
To answer your question, jarvis, the filter is a standard Tetratec filter (2 slide in cartridges inside), with the heater assembly unit attached. Hope this helps.
One last thing. I heard that snails don't really last very long, even though they are quite essential members of the clean up crew. I believe I might be losing some now, but it is difficult to tell. After a couple of days, if I see shells in the same place, I'll start to suspect this, and look into getting more. Gee, did I overfeed them with all this algae?? Scratch that last question.
Thanks again!
Sean

 

[beefcake]

I don't think snails eat diatom algae do they? Unless you have a fighting conch. Are those considered snails ?

 

[sntanner]

That is very interesting. Here is what the lab test kit instructions say:
"Concentrations of toxic ammonia as low as 0.01 pm already show negative effects on fish, while 0.1 ppm can be deadly to some species.
My ammonia levels have NEVER wavered from .1
Should I feed the fish more, to help increase the ammonia level? I just lost one of my clown fish this morning, so clearly I am doing something wrong. I have not done another water change, even though the diatom (if that is what it is) looks TERRIBLE.
The instructions also mention if there is decaying matter in the tank, this can also raise the ammonia level. One of our shrimp just molted, but I don't know if this qualifies as decaying matter or not.
In any case, my gut feeling is that I need to siphon out some of this algae, but I don't know if I should do a water change or not.
Is there something else that I can do, other than checking the chemicals in the water, and the salt content, to help save the fish? Many of our snails have now died, which is something I was told to expect. Now, if you think that snails don't take care of the algae, I'm wondering if because we turn off the lights overnight, every night.
What can I do??????

 

[jarvis]

ok...the tetratech 150 is rated for a 30 gal tank so your fine there and it is an adequite filter. How do you clean the filter? You should not clean your prefilter at all till you get everything stable. Don't remove the slime on the plastic ever (its bacteria). When you do rinse your prefilter rinse it in old tank water. Do you have powerheads in the tank? Even though the tetratec filter has a high turnover you still need lots of curent to flow in the display tank keeping most decaying particals waterborn to find there way to the biological filter. Mabee the live rock could be dieing off due to poor circulation. I don't think a shrimp molting would cause amonia...I could be wrong...but usally they don't stay in the tank for very long with a good cleanup crew. You should not feed your fish more to produce more amonia. You have enough as it is. Now you are just waiting for nitrafying bacteria to catch up. As for the algea I would leave it. Algea is also a form of filtration and its just a part of nature and its in our tanks too. Just remove the green hair algea slowly by hand every few days if your clean up crew can't keep up. Or better yet leave it to help bring your nitrate down. The diatoms should just disapear on there own within time. There is chemical media that will remove phoshates and silicate, but lets not go climming up a big oak tree when we are having trouble climming up a chain link fence. DO NOT CHANGE THE WATER. If none of the above applys to your tank it is overfeeding without a doubt.