tidefanjam
New Member
if i fill my tank w/sea water straight from the gulf of mexico will it still have to cycle?my sand will be from the beach as well...just past the surf.
water
- Thread starter tidefanjam
- Start date
patandlace
Active Member
I wouldn't do that. Their could be harmfull bacteria in the water and sand. Just my opinion.
lexluethar
Active Member
Originally Posted by patandlace
I wouldn't do that. Their could be harmfull bacteria in the water and sand. Just my opinion.
I agree, there are a lot of harmful contaminants that you find close to the beach. Although it isn't in enough concentration to hurt you or I it will probably kill fragile fish and inverts. Just spend the 40 cents a gallon and purchase some from the store.
As for the sand, same deal, probably has a lot of bacteria and contaminants (dog poop, kid pee, etc) that at one time or another has touched the sand, just buy new sand from the store - and I believe it is illegal to get sand from the beach for personal use unless you have a license.
I wouldn't do that. Their could be harmfull bacteria in the water and sand. Just my opinion.
I agree, there are a lot of harmful contaminants that you find close to the beach. Although it isn't in enough concentration to hurt you or I it will probably kill fragile fish and inverts. Just spend the 40 cents a gallon and purchase some from the store.
As for the sand, same deal, probably has a lot of bacteria and contaminants (dog poop, kid pee, etc) that at one time or another has touched the sand, just buy new sand from the store - and I believe it is illegal to get sand from the beach for personal use unless you have a license.
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't even get water out of the ocean. It has to be preped and ready over a period of time. There are tons of micro organisms that will die off causing huge ammonia and nitrite spikes (at least in the beginning.)
Personally, I don't see how you could go wrong with filling your tank up with tap water, de-chlorinating it and adding salt... then sand from your lfs. Makes things simpler.
Personally, I don't see how you could go wrong with filling your tank up with tap water, de-chlorinating it and adding salt... then sand from your lfs. Makes things simpler.
tidefanjam
New Member
i would go out 5 or 10 miles and get the water,i guess buying the sand would be the best idea though.
sepulatian
Moderator
Originally Posted by tidefanjam
i would go out 5 or 10 miles and get the water,i guess buying the sand would be the best idea though.
If you are getting it 5-10 miles off of the coast then go for it. The sand would be full of life
i would go out 5 or 10 miles and get the water,i guess buying the sand would be the best idea though.
If you are getting it 5-10 miles off of the coast then go for it. The sand would be full of life
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33
Personally, I don't see how you could go wrong with filling your tank up with tap water, de-chlorinating it and adding salt... then sand from your lfs. Makes things simpler.
There are all sorts of things in tap water that we dont want in our tanks like phosphates and heavy metals.
Personally, I don't see how you could go wrong with filling your tank up with tap water, de-chlorinating it and adding salt... then sand from your lfs. Makes things simpler.
There are all sorts of things in tap water that we dont want in our tanks like phosphates and heavy metals.
lexluethar
Active Member
Originally Posted by DragonZim
There are all sorts of things in tap water that we dont want in our tanks like phosphates and heavy metals.
It is like beating a dead horse, i've posted 5 different times in the past 10 days regarding tap water and in every post a group of people defend how they use tap water, how it saves money, how they NEVER had problems. Same issue here, don't use tap water, and sure as heck don't suggest to someone to use tap water.
There are all sorts of things in tap water that we dont want in our tanks like phosphates and heavy metals.
It is like beating a dead horse, i've posted 5 different times in the past 10 days regarding tap water and in every post a group of people defend how they use tap water, how it saves money, how they NEVER had problems. Same issue here, don't use tap water, and sure as heck don't suggest to someone to use tap water.
m0nk
Active Member
You probably shouldn't go for anything near the coast (including sand) because of all the pollutants that will end up there....basically and junk that ends up in the water washes up in higher concentration on the beach. I agree with the others that if you go 5-10 miles out to get water and sand, you'll certainly have great life there, but depending on how long it takes you to get everything in your tank and what sort of live rock you might add, you might still see a minor cycle. Just keep an eye on it and if you don't see ammonia spike within two days you should be ok.
m0nk
Active Member
Originally Posted by LexLuethar
It is like beating a dead horse, i've posted 5 different times in the past 10 days regarding tap water and in every post a group of people defend how they use tap water, how it saves money, how they NEVER had problems. Same issue here, don't use tap water, and sure as heck don't suggest to someone to use tap water.
That's always subjective, too. Some areas have great tap water with really low TDS and heavy metals, and some RO units give water with high TDS.... the only thing I would suggest is that beginners don't start with tap water because testing for all the appropriate things is time consuming and requires some skill and money to do. You also need to keep up on the testing, just like you test your tank water. If somehow a batch comes through with more than a certain amount of .. say copper, you really need to know before using it.
It is like beating a dead horse, i've posted 5 different times in the past 10 days regarding tap water and in every post a group of people defend how they use tap water, how it saves money, how they NEVER had problems. Same issue here, don't use tap water, and sure as heck don't suggest to someone to use tap water.
That's always subjective, too. Some areas have great tap water with really low TDS and heavy metals, and some RO units give water with high TDS.... the only thing I would suggest is that beginners don't start with tap water because testing for all the appropriate things is time consuming and requires some skill and money to do. You also need to keep up on the testing, just like you test your tank water. If somehow a batch comes through with more than a certain amount of .. say copper, you really need to know before using it.
perfectdark
Active Member
This was written by Bob Fenner, regarding natural sea water. Take it as you will.
"The strongest point against real seawater is that it "dies", both biologically and chemically more quickly than synthetics. It's a fact; you must change part of the water more frequently with natural water; depending on the size, type of set-up, filtration, et al. 5-10-20% or more a month is often recommended. Many mixes should be changed just as frequently, but often, especially in terms of appearance (yellowing) you can "cheat" more than with natural water.
Another issue good and bad concerning natural water is that it comes ready equipped with a multitude of micro- and macro-organisms. Even if the water is sediment filtered, diatomed, U-Ved, ozonized, many "things" will survive. What to do then? One or two things: 1) Place the water in a dark place for a couple of weeks before using. 2) Treat the water with copper salts, permanganate, formaldehyde, chlorine, etc. and remove the poisonous effects of the treatment before using. 3) Don't worry; consider the source. Many dealers and hobbyists pour natural water, cold turkey into their systems with impunity. I personally do not endorse item 3). I would treat all natural water as suspect and quarantine and treat accordingly.
There are pro arguments to using real water with little critters or their remains in it to start up a system. One point is that the time needed to establish bio-geo-chemical nutrient cycling (whew!) is decreased greatly. Still another beneficial factor is the ready seeding of the habitat for other microbial needs of the fishes, algaes, invertebrates. Some of the naturally occurring tiny creatures that come in live water are harmful, but most are either beneficial or benign in captive applications.
Natural water should be monitored for pH/alkaline buffering capacity at the very least, and a supply of change water or chemcial preparation be kept close at hand for adjustment. Natural seawater, particularly supplies collected far from shore can exhaust it's buffering capacity quickly (within a day).
The synthetic is in a word, convenient; it serves the purpose as a viable medium for marine life and may be kept on a shelf and almost instantly made ready when need. Despite claims to the contrary, there are little deleterious effects of not pre-mixing, aerating... modern synthetic salt mixes prior to their use. Our corporation's service and retail divisions have used thousands of cases of several brands over the years without trouble for new set-ups as well as routine water changes. If the sea life involved is not otherwise challenged or compromised, you should also have no difficulty."
"The strongest point against real seawater is that it "dies", both biologically and chemically more quickly than synthetics. It's a fact; you must change part of the water more frequently with natural water; depending on the size, type of set-up, filtration, et al. 5-10-20% or more a month is often recommended. Many mixes should be changed just as frequently, but often, especially in terms of appearance (yellowing) you can "cheat" more than with natural water.
Another issue good and bad concerning natural water is that it comes ready equipped with a multitude of micro- and macro-organisms. Even if the water is sediment filtered, diatomed, U-Ved, ozonized, many "things" will survive. What to do then? One or two things: 1) Place the water in a dark place for a couple of weeks before using. 2) Treat the water with copper salts, permanganate, formaldehyde, chlorine, etc. and remove the poisonous effects of the treatment before using. 3) Don't worry; consider the source. Many dealers and hobbyists pour natural water, cold turkey into their systems with impunity. I personally do not endorse item 3). I would treat all natural water as suspect and quarantine and treat accordingly.
There are pro arguments to using real water with little critters or their remains in it to start up a system. One point is that the time needed to establish bio-geo-chemical nutrient cycling (whew!) is decreased greatly. Still another beneficial factor is the ready seeding of the habitat for other microbial needs of the fishes, algaes, invertebrates. Some of the naturally occurring tiny creatures that come in live water are harmful, but most are either beneficial or benign in captive applications.
Natural water should be monitored for pH/alkaline buffering capacity at the very least, and a supply of change water or chemcial preparation be kept close at hand for adjustment. Natural seawater, particularly supplies collected far from shore can exhaust it's buffering capacity quickly (within a day).
The synthetic is in a word, convenient; it serves the purpose as a viable medium for marine life and may be kept on a shelf and almost instantly made ready when need. Despite claims to the contrary, there are little deleterious effects of not pre-mixing, aerating... modern synthetic salt mixes prior to their use. Our corporation's service and retail divisions have used thousands of cases of several brands over the years without trouble for new set-ups as well as routine water changes. If the sea life involved is not otherwise challenged or compromised, you should also have no difficulty."
tidefanjam
New Member
thanks for the advice folks,the more ive read and researched i think ill just get a good ro/di filter,seems the easiest way to make sure ive got good water when i need it.
srfisher17
Active Member
Remember, water itself really doesn't "cycle"; the filter media (LR,LS, or even bio-balls) is what needs to "cycle'--so using ocean water isn't going to speed this up.
Speaking of Bob Fenner; he is not convinced that RO/DI water is always the answer to water problems. Not everyone NEEDS RO water; much depends on your local water source. It is great to have, a must in some places; but, to say that it is an absolute necessity for everyone, simply isn't correct. (I'm not including reef tanks in this statement. That is a whole different discussion)
Speaking of Bob Fenner; he is not convinced that RO/DI water is always the answer to water problems. Not everyone NEEDS RO water; much depends on your local water source. It is great to have, a must in some places; but, to say that it is an absolute necessity for everyone, simply isn't correct. (I'm not including reef tanks in this statement. That is a whole different discussion)
srfisher17
Active Member
Originally Posted by LexLuethar
It is like beating a dead horse, i've posted 5 different times in the past 10 days regarding tap water and in every post a group of people defend how they use tap water, how it saves money, how they NEVER had problems. Same issue here, don't use tap water, and sure as heck don't suggest to someone to use tap water.
Maybe if a group( as opposed to one person with the exception)is defending tap water, there might just be something to it.Speaking of Bob Fenner; he is not convinced that RO/DI water is always the answer to water problems. IMO- Not everyone NEEDS RO water; much depends on your local water source. It is great to have, a must in some places; but, to say that it is an absolute necessity for everyone, simply isn't correct. (I'm not including reef tanks in this statement. That is a whole different discussion)
Remember, water itself really doesn't "cycle"; the filter media (LR,LS, or even bio-balls) is what needs to "cycle'--so using ocean water isn't going to speed this up
It is like beating a dead horse, i've posted 5 different times in the past 10 days regarding tap water and in every post a group of people defend how they use tap water, how it saves money, how they NEVER had problems. Same issue here, don't use tap water, and sure as heck don't suggest to someone to use tap water.
Maybe if a group( as opposed to one person with the exception)is defending tap water, there might just be something to it.Speaking of Bob Fenner; he is not convinced that RO/DI water is always the answer to water problems. IMO- Not everyone NEEDS RO water; much depends on your local water source. It is great to have, a must in some places; but, to say that it is an absolute necessity for everyone, simply isn't correct. (I'm not including reef tanks in this statement. That is a whole different discussion)
Remember, water itself really doesn't "cycle"; the filter media (LR,LS, or even bio-balls) is what needs to "cycle'--so using ocean water isn't going to speed this up
reefkprz
Active Member
Originally Posted by JasonMarc
So - what about the company that is making salt mix by evaporating natural sea water? Does that include the same (albeit dried up) dead critters that could cause pollutions?
absolutly, as well as some of the things may go dormant and re animate after drying and rehydration.
So - what about the company that is making salt mix by evaporating natural sea water? Does that include the same (albeit dried up) dead critters that could cause pollutions?
absolutly, as well as some of the things may go dormant and re animate after drying and rehydration.