Went on vacation, now fish are dying

[michelle9491]

I have a 125 with FOWLR/S. Only inhabitants are a miniatus grouper, stars & stripes puffer, & lionfish, all around 12". I tested the water before I left for almost 2 weeks with a friend housesitting & everything seemed normal. When I got back the fish were not acting right, but they seem to pout sometimes when i go out of town, so didnt think that much about it, especially after 16 hours of being in the car. The next day I noticed that the puffer had ick and cloudy eyes. The lion had a tiny bit of ick, and the grouper looked fine. I tested the water again, same results, so I took a sample to the lfs (know the owner very well) and the results were: way too low ph & extemely high nitrates, everything else fine. I bought a new test kit, got the ph back to normal, started a treatment of furan 2 & formulite III. Next day did a 25% water change. Following day another 25% water change & continued treatment while constantly monitoring the ph which is good now, but nitrates still way too high. The lion is seems fine, puffer is actually better, but the grouper doesnt look like hes gonna make it & he looked the best when it started. By the way the tank has been running for over 2 years and everything has been fine with the exception of 1 old lion around 5 years old dying

a year ago. No other problems since. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated, cause the grouper seems like he wont make it through the night.

 

[hlcroghan]

It may be a bit too late for the grouper to start hypo but you should prolly do it for the rest of the fish. You are handling the cause of the problem. The nitrates caused the stress but this does mean that the ick has been there the entire time. Did you add anything to the tank recently? A new edition could have carried ick into the tank. Oh and btw, you cannot do hypo if you have inverts although with those fish I can't imagine you would have any. I would also make sure that you do a tank for any new additions in the future to ensure they are not carrying anything.

 

[michelle9491]

hlcroghan- no new additions in the last year. as far as inverts I wish, but with my crew its impossible!! I have another tank for that at least!

 

[sepulatian]

I agree that they should all be treated properly with hypo. Do you have a tank that you can do that in? If not, can you pull whatever rock you have out into a rubber maid tub with SW from the display? You don't have inverts, removing the rock would be easiest if you don't have a cycled QT.

 

[michelle9491]

Everyone still alive this morning. All white spots gone, and I know its still there though. I could try hypo, but since I have already medicated and it seems to be working, would the further stress of hypo right now be good for the fish?
The lion seems okay, just not as active, puffer looks alot better, but still wont swim, just lays on the sand hiding under a rock, and the grouper is laying down on his side. I put an air diffuser in the tank while I did the water change & left it in there. If the grouper is not laying there looking dead, he is constantly in the bubbles with his mouth open. Almost like he cant breathe. I will try to post pics of him doing it.
Tested the water again this morning.
ph 8.3
ammonia 0
nitrIte 0
nitrAte 160 or more
Im thinking that the high nitrates may be more of a problem than the ick, but im not sure, never had nitrates that high before. Ive battled ick before, but have never seen fish act like this.
So with adding all the above info, should I still start hypo? Also I have some cheato on its way to help with the nitrates but wont be here for days, water changes dont seem to be working.

 

[michelle9491]

I am going to the fish store in a couple of hours, can anyone think of anything I might need to get that will help? Also still waiting on a response about the hypo.

 

[srfisher17]

If you haven't added any livestock in 2 years, it can't possibly be ich. (Ich can be brought in with new inverts.) Ich cannot survive in the dormant state long and you would have seen it before this. You will get different opinions on the nitrate; but, IMO, this is not a problem. (read Fenner on this )Fish can easily handle nitrates much higher than most folks realize; not so for inverts. I suspect some over-all water quality problem that just may not show on your tests; probably introduced while you were away. If you can't QT, IMO, massive water changes are in order--- I think something toxic is in your tank.

 

[michelle9491]

That was the answer I was afraid of. She said she was very careful about cleaning agents, hairspray, perfume, washing hands etc. and if high nitrate isnt that big an issue, and i have treated for both bacterial & parasitic infection, then that has to be the only thing left it can be.
I added the puffer last (a year ago) & have not put in anything else since, except some snails several months ago & of course with a puffer they are all gone.
I can qt them, but with the size of all 3 fish in a 20 gallon seems scary, but doesnt seem i have a choice. With the massive water changes, is there any kind of filter media that would help also?

 

[aquaknight]

Are you absolutely sure the fish had Ich, and not something else, like Lymphocystis? Were the fish "flashing" or scratching on the rocks/sand at all? Were the white spots limited to just the fish's fins?

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by michelle9491
http:///forum/post/2726251
That was the answer I was afraid of. She said she was very careful about cleaning agents, hairspray, perfume, washing hands etc. and if high nitrate isnt that big an issue, and i have treated for both bacterial & parasitic infection, then that has to be the only thing left it can be.
I added the puffer last (a year ago) & have not put in anything else since, except some snails several months ago & of course with a puffer they are all gone.
I can qt them, but with the size of all 3 fish in a 20 gallon seems scary, but doesnt seem i have a choice. With the massive water changes, is there any kind of filter media that would help also?
Yes, run as much good quality carbon as you can; maybe something like Chemi-Pure also. they absorb a lot of toxins. Big, frequent water changes will dilute whatever the problem is. Generally, new water should be mixed & aerated for at least 24 hrs; but in an emergency, you may need do whatever is necessary. But I'd change as much as you can; 25% ever 24 hours maybe. If your lfs guy would take them for a while (a good one should, if he has room); that would be a good choice. Skin discoloration, etc can be caused by many water quality problems; plus, the fish's immune system is compromised as well.

 

[michelle9491]

All still alive! I actually found a fish store here that I didnt know existed. The owner spent about an hour with me, which I thought was great. Since the ick seems to be under control for now & after all i told her, she seems to think something toxic too or she really thinks it the Furan 2 I used is what is making the fish so sick. She doesnt like that med & says it stresses the fish out too much & seems to deplete the oxygen, which explains why they keep going for the air stone so much. So I got a couple of poly filters & some other stuff to get rid of the Furan. Also they had cheato so that will hopefully help with the high nitrates. She said get the fish back to normal even with the ick, then go from there, then I will do hypo. Which after thinking about it, the fish did get really worse (especially the grouper who didnt have ick yet) after putting the Foran 2 in there. So basically I will be back at sqaure one. live & learn! They seem better already, the puffer is wanting to eat! Hoping the other 2 will come around soon. No drastic imrovements, but I can tell they r feeling better already. Has anyone else out there had any experience with foran 2? I could be way off base here, so any comments are greatly appreciated. Sorry for being so long!

 

[hlcroghan]

no i haven't heard of this medication but it's good to know. thanks for sharing your info.

 

[srfisher17]

I'm really lost here. 1.) How long did you use the Furan? Furan is an anti-biotic, why did you use it?2.)Why treat for ich if you don't have it? I don't think you do. Ich can't just appear out of thin air. Ich can't appear one day and be wiped out the next. 3.) Chaeto is not a quick cure for nitrates and nitrates did not cause your problem. (IMO) You need to do water changes. They will help with any possible cause of your problem Have you done any? This is almost ALWAYS the 1st thing to do in your circumstances. 4.) If your poly-filter is the one made by bio-marine, its a great product.

 

[mantisman51]

"Prophylaxis "An ounce of prevention...". As mentioned earlier, most maladies of aquatic livestock can be prevented by putting initially healthy organisms into good, constant captive environments and preventing introduction of noxious stimuli and micro-organisms. *!*!*This being stated, most fish tanks support some latent (non-infectious) level of ich. *!*!*Keep these under control by keeping the environment healthy (optimized and consistent). Keep out new, possibly more virulent strains of ich by making sure anything wet you add to the tank is safe, if not sterile. Dry out the tank, gear, ornaments prior to use or treat them with a biocide (like diluted bleach solution) to eliminate parasites." BF-WWM
Ich is ALWAYS in an aquarium. It can (and does) appear with no new fish introduction. I had not added any fish to my tank for 8 months, but after several days of power outages and off and on heat in my house and tanks, my tank got a horrible ich infestation.

 

[michelle9491]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/2727636
I'm really lost here. 1.) How long did you use the Furan? Furan is an anti-biotic, why did you use it?2.)Why treat for ich if you don't have it? I don't think you do. Ich can't just appear out of thin air. Ich can't appear one day and be wiped out the next. 3.) Chaeto is not a quick cure for nitrates and nitrates did not cause your problem. (IMO) You need to do water changes. They will help with any possible cause of your problem Have you done any? This is almost ALWAYS the 1st thing to do in your circumstances. 4.) If your poly-filter is the one made by bio-marine, its a great product.
I used the Furan for a couple of days, the reason I was using it, because the fish had a secondary infection (really bad cloudy eyes) besides the ick. And yes it is ick and they had it. I even went to the fish stores around here to find a fish with ick so I could look at it in person, been awhile since I have seen it. And it is what they have.
I know chaeto is not a quick fix for nitrates, but will help in the long run. I have done water changes everyday also even before starting the meds (first thing I always do when something is not right, but I realize that nitrates dont go away fast either. Just doing anything I can to get the tank back right.
And yes the filters are bio-marine & I am using 2 of them instead of 1 along with more water changes.

 

[michelle9491]

Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/2728154
"Prophylaxis "An ounce of prevention...". As mentioned earlier, most maladies of aquatic livestock can be prevented by putting initially healthy organisms into good, constant captive environments and preventing introduction of noxious stimuli and micro-organisms. *!*!*This being stated, most fish tanks support some latent (non-infectious) level of ich. *!*!*Keep these under control by keeping the environment healthy (optimized and consistent). Keep out new, possibly more virulent strains of ich by making sure anything wet you add to the tank is safe, if not sterile. Dry out the tank, gear, ornaments prior to use or treat them with a biocide (like diluted bleach solution) to eliminate parasites." BF-WWM
Ich is ALWAYS in an aquarium. It can (and does) appear with no new fish introduction. I had not added any fish to my tank for 8 months, but after several days of power outages and off and on heat in my house and tanks, my tank got a horrible ich infestation.
I totally agree with you about the ick. Its always there as it is in the ocean. I was gone for 2 weeks, for days they wouldnt eat for the girl housesitting. They dont even like it when my husband or anyone else tries to feed them. So I am sure they got real stressed out. Whether some toxin got in the water (dont know) and the high nitrates and the stress, its no wonder they got ick. Then when I added the Furan for the secondary infection, they started acting weird (not swimming). I found out that Furan depletes the oxygen in the tank, which was something I had no idea would happen & will never use again.

 

[hlcroghan]

Originally Posted by mantisman51
http:///forum/post/2728154
"Prophylaxis "An ounce of prevention...". As mentioned earlier, most maladies of aquatic livestock can be prevented by putting initially healthy organisms into good, constant captive environments and preventing introduction of noxious stimuli and micro-organisms. *!*!*This being stated, most fish tanks support some latent (non-infectious) level of ich. *!*!*Keep these under control by keeping the environment healthy (optimized and consistent). Keep out new, possibly more virulent strains of ich by making sure anything wet you add to the tank is safe, if not sterile. Dry out the tank, gear, ornaments prior to use or treat them with a biocide (like diluted bleach solution) to eliminate parasites." BF-WWM
Ich is ALWAYS in an aquarium. It can (and does) appear with no new fish introduction. I had not added any fish to my tank for 8 months, but after several days of power outages and off and on heat in my house and tanks, my tank got a horrible ich infestation.
Ich does not just appear. It is absolutely not ALWAYS in the aquarium. That is like saying people are always sick simply because there is bacteria around us. The fish have to have it. That being said yes it is possible that the fish have had it for a long time and it has been dormant. But if you have quarantined all of your new fish and treated them prior to adding to the DT, then they should not be carrying it into your tank. Ich does not travel on decorations unless they came from a tank that had it and it was active. And I would seriously advise against putting any bleach on anything in your tank. That is toxic to your tank whether it is diluted or not.

 

[michelle9491]

Also I just wanted to say that I know most people on this forum do not like the use of meds. I never use them in other tank (55g), because of inverts, etc. And I do have a qt that I use, but it is small & all I have room for right now. But with the 125g all the fish are 12" plus. My qt is not big enough for all 3 of them and really not big enough for one IMO. I have NO inverts or anything in the 125g that the meds will hurt. So I dont see the point in futher stressing those fish by tying to net them (especially a 12" lionfish, which you risk further damage) and putting them in the qt. Maybe one day I will get a bigger qt, but for now it's all I have, so I have to work with what i've got. I have 2 totally different setups so I act accordingly when something goes wrong. And again thank you so much for everyones help. I sincerely appreciate it. I have learned alot since this happened so at least something good has come of it. If anyone else has something to add, please do.

 

[hlcroghan]

If you don't have any inverts then definitely do hypo to kill off all the ich. That way you won't have to worry about that again.

 

[michelle9491]

Originally Posted by hlcroghan
http:///forum/post/2728624
If you don't have any inverts then definitely do hypo to kill off all the ich. That way you won't have to worry about that again.
The ich seems to be under control enough for now, getting that med out seems to be working, they are slowly acting better. Soon as I see some more improvement, I plan on doing hypo. Just seems like they have been under so much stress & so many changes to the tank, that I want to wait a couple of days to let them get back on their feet or should I say fins, before starting it (puffer is still hiding & laying on the bottom of tank, but eating long as I bring it to him, others not eating again yet & still acting strange).
Unless it wouldnt hurt to start immediately, any ideas?