What are some good methods for developing a successful DSB?

[lionstorm]

I have a deep sand bed in now but its not processing nitrates yet or at least not very many of them. What are some ways to help it develop? Would sand sifting crabs help?
Any suggestions would be great, right now I have a lot of bristle worms, some copepods, and some cricket looking things in the sand bed but thats about it. The bed is 4 1/2 inches deep but i don't think the bottom layer is getting stirred.
Should I order one of those detrivos (sp) kits?
Oh another question anyone who has had sand sifting crabs before, do they ever come out of the sand? I have a pufferfish in one tank and I don't want to use them again because I know for a fact that he'll eat them

 

[stumpdog]

Detritvore kits are great for getting some critters in the bed. You can also get certain snails that turn the sand bed, Nassarius Snail
, or a fighting conch.
HTH-
Jeremy

 

[aarone]

get lots of sand sifters.

 

[smokinstarfish]

What do cirratulid and terrebellid worms look like?
I think I have at least one of those.

 

[bang guy]

What Kipass said
I would like to add that most of the critters doing the sand shifting are not much larger than the grains of sand they are shifting. A few pounds of high quality live sand will supply a good diversity of these tiny sand bed infauna.
I'll once again repeat what Kipass said... Sand Sifters are poison to a healthy sandbed. The idea is to slowly trickle water to the lower areas of the sand bed. Larger creatures will move the water too fast and this influx of oxygenated water will actually kill the bacteria that consume Nitrate.
I have an additional theory that having highly efficient biological filters like a trickle filter or fluidized sand beds detract from a DSBs ability to process Nitrate. I haven't had time to prove this theory to me or anyone else but I do believe it.

 

[smokinstarfish]

I can't see how it detracts from a DSBs ability to eat nitrate.
Wet/dry's bring very oxygenated water to the DSB without ammonia and nitrite, just like in the ocean.

 

[toddpolish]

do Nassarius and Ceriths deplete the pod population???

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by smokinstarfish
Wet/dry's bring very oxygenated water to the DSB without ammonia and nitrite, just like in the ocean.
Not really... In the Ocean highly oxygenated & Ammonia laden water is brought to the sand bed where aerobic bacteria convert it into low-oxygen Nitrate laden water.
If you can prove me wrong I'm definately listening. Perhaps I'll have time this winter for more anectodal evidence to either support or contradict my theory.
The premise for what I'm saying hinges on my belief that systems where the ammonia/nitrite conversion takes place away from the sandbed causes a severe dilution of Nitrate in the water reaching the anoxic areas of the bed. ie. trickle filters are too efficient for optimal Nitrate removal.

 

[cincyreefer]

Bang Guy- If I understand your theory correctly (which I may be way off) you are saying that a DSB works the best when the sand bed and rock is processing the amm/trites instead of a filter, since their bi-product would already be closer to the sand bed.
I understand your logic, but why would it be that way when ammonia typically resides near the surface of the water making it difficult for the ammonia to be processed in the sand bed. Also, nitrate naturally sinks to the sand and inside live rock, hence the reason water changes won't really help with nitrates. If it would be diluted too much in the water, then don't you think that water changes would help with nitrates and that a constant amount of water changes would keep the nitrates down then? It is an interesting idea, and I would love to know your results if you look into it more, or if you don't agree with my opinions.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by cincyreefer
ammonia typically resides near the surface of the water
I don't know this to be true except in a still water body. Same with Nitrate. Are you saying that water current isn't enough to disperse these chemicals evenly throughout the tank?
It has been my experience that a 10% water change temporarily results in a 10% reduction in Nitrate... very temporarily. Has this not been your experience? Those are good questions. Do you have more? If I test Nitrate in water near the bottom of the tank will my reading be higher than at the water surface? This is a pretty simple test. I'll try that this week.

 

[lionstorm]

does saltwaterfish.com carry Detritvore kits? if not could someone email me a site that does @ disasterchick@charter.net
I think I may still have a lot of air packets in my sand and I was thinking some sand sifting crabs might help but I guess not.
Are you sure they wouldn't be a good idea? I can still see some air against the sides of the glass, I tried to get as much air out of the bed as i could but there's only so much you can do :-/
Oh btw thank you for all the lovely posts, I leave for school and come home to a wealth of information

 

[cincyreefer]

Yes, water current will help disperse the ammonia but a majority of it will always work it's way to the top. This is the idea behind keeping the pump to a skimmer at the surface of the water as well as overflows. That is why overflows work so well, especially going into a refugium. Most of the ammonia flows into the overflow and drops into a sump, which is why refugiums work so well. This idea goes along with your theory because I don't think anyone will claim that refugiums don't work well for amm/trites, and especially nitrates. The refugium processes the ammonia and then the nitrates can be quickly consumed also. Never thought about that until now....
Yes, I have experienced the same thing as you with the water changes. You will see a slight drop in nitrates, but more quickly leach out of the rock and sand.
I would think that testing the nitrates at the bottom of the tank compared to the top would be an interesting test.... but i dont think it would prove much unless you could test the water within the sandbed or the rock.
Your idea did make a major light bulb go off as to why DSB's in a refugium work so much better than DSB's in the display tank.