What do bio balls do???

[florida joe]

Reef that would be a worthwhile experiment. While I have no doubt about advection through rock with the right porosity. I am just not sold on the idea that one can take and introduce a stream of water at one spot and have it come out the other in that short of a time span. I may try this little experiment this weekend. I will get some food coloring take a piece of live rock from my tank put it in a clear container and try to shoot colored water through the rock

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3133113
Reef that would be a worthwhile experiment. While I have no doubt about advection through rock with the right porosity. I am just not sold on the idea that one can take and introduce a stream of water at one spot and have it come out the other in that short of a time span. I may try this little experiment this weekend. I will get some food coloring take a piece of live rock from my tank put it in a clear container and try to shoot colored water through the rock
Joe, my friend, nobody knows how to liven up an ordinary weekend like you do!

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3133167
Joe, my friend, nobody knows how to liven up an ordinary weekend like you do!
Yes just call me Mr. EXCUITMENT

 

[pezenfuego]

I'm with Reefkprz on this one...as I stated with the golfball theory before. However I do believe that either bioballs or LR would be a good choice and personal preference is what it comes down to.
Now, if I had some empty tanks around I would try this.
I think tufa rock would be the best choice if anyone is to do this. Obviously several tests should be done, the temperatures should be equal, the mass of bioballs would need to be equivalent to the mass of the LR, the water should be from the same source with the same salinity and salt used.
It may be a good idea to utilize a seeded piece of live rock (same size and type for both tanks obviously). Then you would have to add pure ammonia (make sure it is free of surfactants) in the same dose to each tank. Then you have to check the level of ammonia at different intervals. The first one to completely rid itself of the ammonia in the tank is the theoretically the better one at housing the bacteria.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3133113
Reef that would be a worthwhile experiment. While I have no doubt about advection through rock with the right porosity. I am just not sold on the idea that one can take and introduce a stream of water at one spot and have it come out the other in that short of a time span. I may try this little experiment this weekend. I will get some food coloring take a piece of live rock from my tank put it in a clear container and try to shoot colored water through the rock
joe no need to subject your rock to food coloring just take a water filled baster and pressit against one of the many crannies in a rock in your tank and squeeze (granted it probably wont work if your rock is encrusted with coraline.) but you should see crud go flying.

 

[posiden]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/3133580
joe no need to subject your rock to food coloring just take a water filled baster and pressit against one of the many crannies in a rock in your tank and squeeze (granted it probably wont work if your rock is encrusted with coraline.) but you should see crud go flying.

It is a good thing this disscusion isn't about LR in the display. Coraline most def throws a rock in the wagon wheel. On this type of subject, I have to wonder how one will know when thier LRR is impacted and no longer getting the flow through effect? They now have an item that is internaly feeding what it is that they want to get rid of.
Also on you experiment, I wonder how one would be able to make certin that the amonia was the same in both tanks, along with how much amonia would be produced in said tank.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/3133616
Also on you experiment, I wonder how one would be able to make certin that the amonia was the same in both tanks, along with how much amonia would be produced in said tank.
you would have to use empty tanks with just the aged bioballs (tank 1) and the live rock rubble (tank 2) in the trickle filter. and put a measured dose of pure ammonia liquid into each tank. then make sure you use the same cubic foot amount of each bioballs and rock rubble. pretty simple if you have 2 tanks 2 filters and some bioballs and rubble.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/3133725
you would have to use empty tanks with just the aged bioballs (tank 1) and the live rock rubble (tank 2) in the trickle filter. and put a measured dose of pure ammonia liquid into each tank. then make sure you use the same cubic foot amount of each bioballs and rock rubble. pretty simple if you have 2 tanks 2 filters and some bioballs and rubble.
Should work; but both tanks would need to be cycled first.

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3133757
Should work; but both tanks would need to be cycled first.
They would not. Even with no source of seed, the tank would be able to cycle in the matter of a month to a month in a half. Most people don't realize this, but LIVE rock is not essential for cycling a tank.
If can't stress this enough, if anyone is to do this, make sure that your source of ammonia is stable (ie not a raw shrimp, but rather a bottle of pure ammonia) and that the "pure" ammonia is free of surfactants, dyes, etc. The label can only have 2 ingredients and no more than two. Those being ammonia and water. Anything else and the experiment would be worthless.
If you shake the bottle and foam is created...the experiment is worthless. If the color of the bottle is anything other than clear...the experiment is worthless. If you don't measure out the same amount of ammonia for both tanks...you are worthless.
Of course to start off you would want to add about 5 ppm to each tank. You can do this by first adding about 1 teaspoon to a neutral container of water (this container of water will not be either of the test subjects and the amount will have to be known. Ie, a one gallon container will do well). Keep adding this ammonia and testing until you get it up to 5 ppm. Once that is done take note of how many teaspoons per gallon you need and multiply that to come up with the amount of ammonia to add for the two test tanks.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/3133796
They would not. Even with no source of seed, the tank would be able to cycle in the matter of a month to a month in a half. Most people don't realize this, but LIVE rock is not essential for cycling a tank.
If can't stress this enough, if anyone is to do this, make sure that your source of ammonia is stable (ie not a raw shrimp, but rather a bottle of pure ammonia) and that the "pure" ammonia is free of surfactants, dyes, etc. The label can only have 2 ingredients and no more than two. Those being ammonia and water. Anything else and the experiment would be worthless.
If you shake the bottle and foam is created...the experiment is worthless. If the color of the bottle is anything other than clear...the experiment is worthless. If you don't measure out the same amount of ammonia for both tanks...you are worthless.
Of course to start off you would want to add about 5 ppm to each tank. You can do this by first adding about 1 teaspoon to a neutral container of water (this container of water will not be either of the test subjects and the amount will have to be known. Ie, a one gallon container will do well). Keep adding this ammonia and testing until you get it up to 5 ppm. Once that is done take note of how many teaspoons per gallon you need and multiply that to come up with the amount of ammonia to add for the two test tanks.
I really don't follow you. Of course, a tank will cycle just using the bacteria available. But, different media (rubble & bio-balls) will probably cycle at different rates. If a tank does not have an active and stable culture of aerobic bacteria; comparisons of ammonia reduction are worthless. A new, dry piece of LR rubble or a new bio-ball will not reduce ammonia at all. I guess this is just a long way of saying that a tank must be cycled (in any manner) to produce valid results. (IMO) Also, other media capable of holding aerobic bacteria (substrate, filter pads, carbon, etc) would also skew results. Bio-load is also a factor. I would think there are many other variables that influence rate of ammonia reduction; like PH, temp, SG and anything else that could affect bacteria activity.

 

[florida joe]

The first one to completely rid itself of the ammonia in the tank is the theoretically the better one at housing the bacteria.
To many variables for that test to be valid. How do you isolate the colonization of nitrifying bacteria on the rock and bio-balls? Now do you control flow to assure that you are passing the ammonia at the same rate over and or through both media?

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3133919
To many variables for that test to be valid. How do you isolate the colonization of nitrifying bacteria on the rock and bio-balls? Now do you control flow to assure that you are passing the ammonia at the same rate over and or through both media?
Shoot, you're right. I completely forgot about that aspect

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
http:///forum/post/3133580
joe no need to subject your rock to food coloring just take a water filled baster and pressit against one of the many crannies in a rock in your tank and squeeze (granted it probably wont work if your rock is encrusted with coraline.) but you should see crud go flying.

Reef I am not questioning the porosity of the rock but the speed of which water passes through, do we get the same flow through the rock with our normal water movement as we would by putting the baster up against it and Directing water under pressure at a single small spot If not does that not negate some of the area inside the rock used for nitrification when we compare it to bio-balls which have the greater surface area ?
We also loose some area with in the rock to denser less porous spots where anaerobic bacteria colonize

 

[posiden]

That is what I was driving at. The dye off within the live rock or even the fact that there will already be, to some degree of impaction in the LR. Who ever might be living inside of the rock will produce waste.

 

[paul in az]

I no longer have salt but have an 8000 gallon pond with a biofilter that works great once the bacteria are established. I looked at this bioball thread out of curiosity. Lots of opinion.
Here is a site with data comparing surface area of various media.
http://wernersponds.com/biofiltermedia.htm

 

[florida joe]

Thanks for the info Paul and welcome, hope you stick around. The information however does not deal with the type of rock typical of marine aquariums

 

[globaldesigns]

WHAT DO THEY DO!!! REALLY, LETS DON'T GO THERE!!!
HEHE, just kidding, but when I had them in my overflows, the grill I had on the bottom of each overflow came off both, and then I had bio-balls galore stuck in my plumbing... I had to buy a snake and go from underneath and try to push them back up, THEN the snake would get stuck at the valve area... Eventually got them all out, but never again. Now I have standpipes and fill the overflows and don't use bioballs.
To answer your question: bioballs allow for the beneficial bacteria to create homes within and then creating an environment that supposedly helps your water parameters. However bioballs can also create an environment that will generate higher Nitrites, etc... so you do need to tumble them at times and have your filter sock, skimmer etc. clean out any extra gunk.
I would personally invest in more Live Rock, it is better for your system and will not create issues like bio-balls can.
I wasn't too technical but I hope this helps.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3143107
Thanks for the info Paul and welcome, hope you stick around. The information however does not deal with the type of rock typical of marine aquariums
thats great info on various media, (especially the part where plastic pot scrubbers have about 2X the surface area of bioballs) I am pretty sure I mentioned that earlier in this thread.

 

[florida joe]

HEHE, just kidding, but when I had them in my overflows, the grill I had on the bottom of each overflow came of of both, and then I had bio-balls galore stuck in my plumbing... I had to buy a snake and go from underneath and try to push them back up, THEN the snake would get stuck at the valve area... Eventually got them all out, but never again. Now I have standpipes and fill the overflows and don't use bioballs.
and you attribute this problem to your bio balls or to a lack of maintenance

However bioballs can also create an environment that will generate higher Nitrites, etc... so you do need to tumble them at times and have your filter sock, skimmer etc. clean out any extra gunk your quote
again don’t blame the bio balls blame the hobbyist if he has bio balls to begin with he or she should know how to maintain them I never heard they need to be tumbled
thats great info on various media, (especially the part where plastic pot scrubbers have about 2X the surface area of bioballs) I am pretty sure I mentioned that earlier in this thread.
But we were not comparing bio-balls to other media only bio balls to live rock
BTW good to hear from you Reef I was getting bored

 

[globaldesigns]

and you attribute this problem to your bio balls or to a lack of maintenance
However bioballs can also create an environment that will generate higher Nitrites, etc... so you do need to tumble them at times and have your filter sock, skimmer etc. clean out any extra gunk your quote
again don’t blame the bio balls blame the hobbyist if he has bio balls to begin with he or she should know how to maintain them I never heard they need to be tumbled But we were not comparing bio-balls to other media only bio balls to live rock
BTW good to hear from you Reef I was getting bored
I am not blaming the BioBalls for going in the plumbing, just wanted to share my story... That is all! Maybe it will help someone else who is doing the same... Make sure the intake grills are not lose or epoxy them in!!! And you can't say it is to a lack of maintenance... Come on now Florida Joe! you know better... It just happened, unforseen/unexpected outcome. And in regards to BioBalls, all I can say is most LFS here in Calgary Canada state the same, Bioballs should be tumbled or cleaned every once in a blue moon. You may agree or disagree, I am just passing on other opinions.
Wow, tell a story, get burned...

shame on me, I guess sharing stories isn't good here, or members with much more posts feel they are GOD or something. Lets move onward all.