What makes a tank "mature" ?
- Thread starter mkroher
- Start date
saltyjewell
Member
Time?
t316
Active Member
Originally Posted by mkroher
http:///forum/post/3102031
How about a more intelligent answer?
It was funny, but correct. Time is what your rock, substrate, fuge, etc. need to start growing all the creepy crawly things (algea, pods, etc) that help the whole system stabilize and sustain itself better. Your parameters will also stabilize and be more predictable. I'm not a marine biologist so I don't know what all those things are, but you will see it and recognize the difference.
http:///forum/post/3102031
How about a more intelligent answer?
It was funny, but correct. Time is what your rock, substrate, fuge, etc. need to start growing all the creepy crawly things (algea, pods, etc) that help the whole system stabilize and sustain itself better. Your parameters will also stabilize and be more predictable. I'm not a marine biologist so I don't know what all those things are, but you will see it and recognize the difference.
spanko
Active Member
From Eric Borneman
Eric Borneman is the author of Aquarium Corals: Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History, and is co-author for the book, A Practical Guide to Corals. He has authored and published many papers on marine subjects in various scientific and trade publications and journals internationally. He is the host of The Coral Forum at Reef Central, is a contributor to many websites internationally, has spoken at scientific and aquarium related conferences, events, and societies, and has taught classes on coral biology, coral propagation, and other reef issues. He co-founded the Marine and Reef Aquarium Society of Houston and is currently involved with coral disease and aquarium trade sustainability issues worldwide.
Eric has been maintaining reef aquaria for twelve years, and has been diving and photographing coral reefs of the world for 25 years. His current aquaria include a linked multi-habitat system of over 500 gallons that includes a sea grass habitat, an inter-tidal habitat and a large coral reef that run without any filtration devices.
Hi Eric, I was hoping you could help me to understand better what it means for a system to "mature" or "become established". Hobbyists (me included) are always saying not to keep that sps or this anemone for a least a year until your system has matured.
What exactly are the differences between a tank which finished cycling a month ago and one that finished cycling 11 months ago.
Does it have to do with water parameters being more stable?
Does it have to do with natural food availability?
Does "tank maturity" pertain more to those who utilize a DSB, because it takes 6 months for a DSB to become functional?
EricHugo
Eric Borneman
Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Houston TX USA
Occupation:
Posts: 7276
Before delving on this one, a couple of comments:
COMMENT
>>I know Eric to be a promoter of letting the tank's "natural" flora and fauna proliferate for many months, and I agree that this is a very natural and safe approach. However, I think someone who has "been there" can modify these guidelines according to their experience. No, you can't rush quality - I agree that rushing things is not preferable. If I had the space and time, I would have waited longer than a month to put any animals in my tank. I guess what I'm saying is that experience can allow one to get away with some things. Then again, sometimes not. <<
ANSWER
I agree one can go much faster depending on what one begins with in the first place, and depending on how many times you've done it before. That said, with the average start up, there are certain things, as mentioned, that cannot be hurried, and hurrying seems to make them worse rather than better. The experience plays a part when you are able to nip some of those things in the bud because you have dealt with them before even in a mature tank.
COMMENT
>>I'm going on my 4th month of cycling with no live stock other then some turbo's and blue hermits. I have been feeding on the heavy side and will start to feed live plankton for the next 4 months. Then I will start to add corals. The fish will be added very last. The one thing that I have noticed is that the diversity of life is much great during the cycling process so far.<<
ANSWER
Yeah, that is the amazing part...a shame most will never witness that.
COMMENT
>>Hi Eric, I was hoping you could help me to understand better what it means for a system to "mature" or "become established". Hobbyists (me included) are always saying not to keep that sps or this anemone for a least a year until your system has matured.
What exactly are the differences between a tank which finished cycling a month ago and one that finished cycling 11 months ago.<<
more below
>>Does it have to do with water parameters being more stable?<< yes, nut ot necessarily
>>Does it have to do with natural food availability?<< Not sure but I don't think so.
>>Does "tank maturity" pertain more to those who utilize a DSB, because it takes 6 months for a DSB to become functional ?<<
ANSWER
no. Tank maturity seems to be even more of an issue without the sand bed.. The sand bed just takes some time to get enough nutrients in it to sustain populations and stratify into somewhat stable communities...seems like a longer period of time makes things go in the other direction.
Eric Borneman is the author of Aquarium Corals: Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History, and is co-author for the book, A Practical Guide to Corals. He has authored and published many papers on marine subjects in various scientific and trade publications and journals internationally. He is the host of The Coral Forum at Reef Central, is a contributor to many websites internationally, has spoken at scientific and aquarium related conferences, events, and societies, and has taught classes on coral biology, coral propagation, and other reef issues. He co-founded the Marine and Reef Aquarium Society of Houston and is currently involved with coral disease and aquarium trade sustainability issues worldwide.
Eric has been maintaining reef aquaria for twelve years, and has been diving and photographing coral reefs of the world for 25 years. His current aquaria include a linked multi-habitat system of over 500 gallons that includes a sea grass habitat, an inter-tidal habitat and a large coral reef that run without any filtration devices.
Hi Eric, I was hoping you could help me to understand better what it means for a system to "mature" or "become established". Hobbyists (me included) are always saying not to keep that sps or this anemone for a least a year until your system has matured.
What exactly are the differences between a tank which finished cycling a month ago and one that finished cycling 11 months ago.
Does it have to do with water parameters being more stable?
Does it have to do with natural food availability?
Does "tank maturity" pertain more to those who utilize a DSB, because it takes 6 months for a DSB to become functional?
EricHugo
Eric Borneman
Registered: Jan 2000
Location: Houston TX USA
Occupation:
Posts: 7276
Before delving on this one, a couple of comments:
COMMENT
>>I know Eric to be a promoter of letting the tank's "natural" flora and fauna proliferate for many months, and I agree that this is a very natural and safe approach. However, I think someone who has "been there" can modify these guidelines according to their experience. No, you can't rush quality - I agree that rushing things is not preferable. If I had the space and time, I would have waited longer than a month to put any animals in my tank. I guess what I'm saying is that experience can allow one to get away with some things. Then again, sometimes not. <<
ANSWER
I agree one can go much faster depending on what one begins with in the first place, and depending on how many times you've done it before. That said, with the average start up, there are certain things, as mentioned, that cannot be hurried, and hurrying seems to make them worse rather than better. The experience plays a part when you are able to nip some of those things in the bud because you have dealt with them before even in a mature tank.
COMMENT
>>I'm going on my 4th month of cycling with no live stock other then some turbo's and blue hermits. I have been feeding on the heavy side and will start to feed live plankton for the next 4 months. Then I will start to add corals. The fish will be added very last. The one thing that I have noticed is that the diversity of life is much great during the cycling process so far.<<
ANSWER
Yeah, that is the amazing part...a shame most will never witness that.
COMMENT
>>Hi Eric, I was hoping you could help me to understand better what it means for a system to "mature" or "become established". Hobbyists (me included) are always saying not to keep that sps or this anemone for a least a year until your system has matured.
What exactly are the differences between a tank which finished cycling a month ago and one that finished cycling 11 months ago.<<
more below
>>Does it have to do with water parameters being more stable?<< yes, nut ot necessarily
>>Does it have to do with natural food availability?<< Not sure but I don't think so.
>>Does "tank maturity" pertain more to those who utilize a DSB, because it takes 6 months for a DSB to become functional ?<<
ANSWER
no. Tank maturity seems to be even more of an issue without the sand bed.. The sand bed just takes some time to get enough nutrients in it to sustain populations and stratify into somewhat stable communities...seems like a longer period of time makes things go in the other direction.
spanko
Active Member
ERIC BORNEMAN EXPLANATION ON TANK MATURITY
So, here's the tank reason, and then I'll blow into some ecology for you.
When you get a tank, you start with no populations of anything. You get live rock to form the basis of the biodiversity - and remember that virtually everything is moderated by bacteria and photosynthesis in our tanks. So live rock is the substrate for all this stuff, and also has a lot of life on it. How much depends on a lot of things. Mostly, marine animals and plants don’t like to be out of water for a day at a time...much less the many days to sometimes a week that often happens. So, assuming you are not using existing rock form a tank, or the well-treated aquaculture stuff, you have live rock that has either relatively free of anything alive, or you have live rock with a few stragglers and a whole lot of stuff dying or about to die because it won’t survive in the tank. From the moment you start, you are in the negative. Corallines will be dying, sponges, dead worms and crustaceans and echinoids and bivalves, many of which are in the rock and you won't ever see. Not to mention the algae, cyanobacteria, and bacteria...most of which is dead and will decompose, or which will die and decompose. This is where the existing bacteria get kick started...
Bacteria grow really fast, and so they are able to grow to levels that are capable of uptaking nitrogen within...well, the cycling time of a few weeks to a month or so. However, if you realize the doubling time of these bugs, you would know that in a month, you should have a tank packed full of bacteria and no room for water. That means something is killing or eating bacteria. Also realize that if you have a tank with constant decomposition happening at a rate high enough to spike ammonia off the scale, you have a lot of bacteria food...way more than you will when things stop dying off and decomposing. So, bacterial growth may have caught up with the level of nitrogen being produced, but things are still dying...you just test zero for ammonia cause there are enough bacteria present to keep up with he nitrogen being released by the dying stuff....does not mean things are finished decomposing.
Now, if things are decomposing, they are releasing more than ammonia. Guess what dead sponges release? All their toxic metabolites. Guess what else? All their natural antibiotic compounds...prevents some microbes from doing very well. Same with the algae, the inverts the cyano, the dinoflagellates, etc. So, let's just figure this death and decomposition is going to take a while. OK, so now we have a tank packed with some kinds of bacteria, probably not much of others. Eventually the death stops. Now, what happens to all that biomass of bacteria without a food source? They die. Ooops. And, de-nitrification is a slow process. Guess what else...bacteria also have antibiotics, toxins, etc. all released when they die. But, the die-off is slow, relative to the loss of nutrients, and there is already a huge population...so you never test ammonia..."The water tests fine"
But, all these swings are happening...every time, they get less and less, but they keep happening. Eventually, they slow and stabilize. What's left? A tank with limited de-nitrification and a whole lot of other stuff in the water. Who comes to the rescue and thrives? The next fastest growing groups...cyano's, single celled algae, protists, ciliates, etc. Then they do their little cycle thing. And then the turf algae. Turfs get mowed down by all the little amphipods that are suddenly springing up cause they have a food source. Maybe you've bought some snails by now, too. And a fish. And the fish dies, of course, because it may not have ammonia to contend with, but is has water filled with things we can't and don't test for...plus, beginning aquarists usually skimp on lights and pumps initially, and haven't figured out that alkalinity test, so pH and O2 are probably swinging wildly at this point.
So, the algae succession kick in, and eventually you have a good algal biomass that handles nitrogen, the bacteria have long settled in and also deal with nutrients, and the aquarium keeper has probably stopped adding fish for a spell cause they keep dying and they started to visit boards and read books and get the knack of the tank a bit. They have probably also added a bunch of fix-it-quick chemicals that didn’t help any, either. Also, they are probably scared to add corals that would actually help with the photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, or they have packed in corals that aren't tolerant of those conditions.
So, here's the tank reason, and then I'll blow into some ecology for you.
When you get a tank, you start with no populations of anything. You get live rock to form the basis of the biodiversity - and remember that virtually everything is moderated by bacteria and photosynthesis in our tanks. So live rock is the substrate for all this stuff, and also has a lot of life on it. How much depends on a lot of things. Mostly, marine animals and plants don’t like to be out of water for a day at a time...much less the many days to sometimes a week that often happens. So, assuming you are not using existing rock form a tank, or the well-treated aquaculture stuff, you have live rock that has either relatively free of anything alive, or you have live rock with a few stragglers and a whole lot of stuff dying or about to die because it won’t survive in the tank. From the moment you start, you are in the negative. Corallines will be dying, sponges, dead worms and crustaceans and echinoids and bivalves, many of which are in the rock and you won't ever see. Not to mention the algae, cyanobacteria, and bacteria...most of which is dead and will decompose, or which will die and decompose. This is where the existing bacteria get kick started...
Bacteria grow really fast, and so they are able to grow to levels that are capable of uptaking nitrogen within...well, the cycling time of a few weeks to a month or so. However, if you realize the doubling time of these bugs, you would know that in a month, you should have a tank packed full of bacteria and no room for water. That means something is killing or eating bacteria. Also realize that if you have a tank with constant decomposition happening at a rate high enough to spike ammonia off the scale, you have a lot of bacteria food...way more than you will when things stop dying off and decomposing. So, bacterial growth may have caught up with the level of nitrogen being produced, but things are still dying...you just test zero for ammonia cause there are enough bacteria present to keep up with he nitrogen being released by the dying stuff....does not mean things are finished decomposing.
Now, if things are decomposing, they are releasing more than ammonia. Guess what dead sponges release? All their toxic metabolites. Guess what else? All their natural antibiotic compounds...prevents some microbes from doing very well. Same with the algae, the inverts the cyano, the dinoflagellates, etc. So, let's just figure this death and decomposition is going to take a while. OK, so now we have a tank packed with some kinds of bacteria, probably not much of others. Eventually the death stops. Now, what happens to all that biomass of bacteria without a food source? They die. Ooops. And, de-nitrification is a slow process. Guess what else...bacteria also have antibiotics, toxins, etc. all released when they die. But, the die-off is slow, relative to the loss of nutrients, and there is already a huge population...so you never test ammonia..."The water tests fine"
But, all these swings are happening...every time, they get less and less, but they keep happening. Eventually, they slow and stabilize. What's left? A tank with limited de-nitrification and a whole lot of other stuff in the water. Who comes to the rescue and thrives? The next fastest growing groups...cyano's, single celled algae, protists, ciliates, etc. Then they do their little cycle thing. And then the turf algae. Turfs get mowed down by all the little amphipods that are suddenly springing up cause they have a food source. Maybe you've bought some snails by now, too. And a fish. And the fish dies, of course, because it may not have ammonia to contend with, but is has water filled with things we can't and don't test for...plus, beginning aquarists usually skimp on lights and pumps initially, and haven't figured out that alkalinity test, so pH and O2 are probably swinging wildly at this point.
So, the algae succession kick in, and eventually you have a good algal biomass that handles nitrogen, the bacteria have long settled in and also deal with nutrients, and the aquarium keeper has probably stopped adding fish for a spell cause they keep dying and they started to visit boards and read books and get the knack of the tank a bit. They have probably also added a bunch of fix-it-quick chemicals that didn’t help any, either. Also, they are probably scared to add corals that would actually help with the photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, or they have packed in corals that aren't tolerant of those conditions.
spanko
Active Member
About a year into it, the sand bed is productive and has stratified, water quality is stable, and the aquarist has bought a few more power heads, understand water quality a bit, corallines and algae, if not corals and other things are photosynthesizing well, and the tank is "mature." That's when fish stop dying when you buy them (at least the cyanide free ones) and corals start to live and grow and I stop getting posts about "I just bought a coral and its dying and my tank is two months old" and they start actually answering some questions here and there.
So, ecologically, this is success ional population dynamics. Its normal, and it happens when there is a hurricane or a fire, or whatever. In nature though, you have pioneer species that are eventually replaced by climax communities. We usually try and stock immediately with climax species. And find it doesn't always work. Now, the "too mature" system is the old tank syndrome. Happens in nature, too. That whole forest fire reinvigorating the system is true. Equally true on coral reefs where the intermediate disturbance hypothesis is the running thought on why coral reefs maintain very high diversity...they’re stable, but not too stable, and require storms, but not catastrophic ones....predation, but not a giant blanket of crown of thorns, mass bleaching, or loss of key herbivores.
This goes to show what good approximations these tanks are of mini-ecosystems. Things happen much faster in tanks, but what do you expect given the bioload per unit area. So, our climax community happens in a couple years rather than a couple of centuries. Thing is, I am fully convinced that intermediate tank disturbance would prevent old tank syndrome.
So, that's it for now...time for me to hit the hay...sorry for typos, I am typing too fast in a dark office.
__________________
Eric Borneman
So, ecologically, this is success ional population dynamics. Its normal, and it happens when there is a hurricane or a fire, or whatever. In nature though, you have pioneer species that are eventually replaced by climax communities. We usually try and stock immediately with climax species. And find it doesn't always work. Now, the "too mature" system is the old tank syndrome. Happens in nature, too. That whole forest fire reinvigorating the system is true. Equally true on coral reefs where the intermediate disturbance hypothesis is the running thought on why coral reefs maintain very high diversity...they’re stable, but not too stable, and require storms, but not catastrophic ones....predation, but not a giant blanket of crown of thorns, mass bleaching, or loss of key herbivores.
This goes to show what good approximations these tanks are of mini-ecosystems. Things happen much faster in tanks, but what do you expect given the bioload per unit area. So, our climax community happens in a couple years rather than a couple of centuries. Thing is, I am fully convinced that intermediate tank disturbance would prevent old tank syndrome.
So, that's it for now...time for me to hit the hay...sorry for typos, I am typing too fast in a dark office.
__________________
Eric Borneman
meowzer
Moderator
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/3102066
Now there's an answer for you...Good job spanko
+1 ....as usual
http:///forum/post/3102066
Now there's an answer for you...Good job spanko
+1 ....as usual
bulldog123
Member
That is a must read for everyone. Wow, you d'
the man.
saltyjewell
Member
Originally Posted by mkroher
http:///forum/post/3102031
How about a more intelligent answer?
sorry I didn't mean to come across rude or anything. Thats why I put a ? there as I was interested too.
http:///forum/post/3102031
How about a more intelligent answer?
sorry I didn't mean to come across rude or anything. Thats why I put a ? there as I was interested too.
king_neptune
Active Member
Originally Posted by mkroher
http:///forum/post/3102027
according to the people on Craigslist who sell their "Mature" rock... it means its covered in parasites and algae.
http:///forum/post/3102027
according to the people on Craigslist who sell their "Mature" rock... it means its covered in parasites and algae.
flower
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/3102237
according to the people on Craigslist who sell their "Mature" rock... it means its covered in parasites and algae.
Yep ...those are the creepy crawleys
http:///forum/post/3102237
according to the people on Craigslist who sell their "Mature" rock... it means its covered in parasites and algae.
Yep ...those are the creepy crawleys