What the bleepedy-bleep is going on?

[robvia]

My tank has been running since Feb. It 90 gallons, wet/dry, 220 Watts fluorescent lighting, canister filter, seaclone 150, and some power heads.
Had two Damsels, clown, yellow tang, coral beauty, panther grouper, and anemone. Things were good, but I wanted it to look better. Had high nitrates and hair algae. I purchased an RO/DI and some plants and trying to get nitrates down.
Added a cardinal, small clown, pseudo chromis, and heniochus butterfly. Also added some soft corals at that point.
A week later the cardinal is dead in the tank, no explanation. A few days later and butterfly shows ich spots and dies. A few days after that the large clown shows ich and dies. Somewhere in the middle of this the small clown goes missing. Shortly after that the chromis is missing. They didn’t jump ship, and I never found them in the tank. I think the grouper eat them. The grouper was traded to a new home. In the middle of all this, the scarlet crab is eating all my snails. It turns them over and picks at them, killing them and then eating them. Nice meal! The pencil urchin pushes rocks over (to be expected and not a real problem), but then latches onto my feather duster and pushes him out of the tube.
Then I got some shrimp, crabs and Naso tang. The arrow crab molted the day after. Not alarming, but it’s nowhere to be found now. I think eaten after it molted. The sally lightfoot after a couple days started to loose it’s legs. I don’t know why. Its now gone. I assume eaten by something.
Yesterday, the final blow. The Naso, which was still hiding a lot, but getting better, was behind the rocks. The urchin came from the top, over the tang, and attached to the tangs head. The best looking fish in my tank is now dead. I don’t know if it died before the urchin started eating it or after.
The mushrooms, polyp, leather, and zoos seem to be doing well.
Am I doing something terribly wrong? Does this kind of thing happen a lot? Am I just a stupid newbie and crying because of things that are my own fault?
Also the shrimp attack the anemones when I feed them a shrimp pellet. It’s kind of cool to watch, but I don’t know if the anemones are getting enough food or not.
Please help!
Thanks,
Rob

 

[mary]

There's a lot of information you didn't get before you put all those critters together. You set up a slaughtertank. I can't believe if you read these forums that you would have put unsafe and safe marine life together in one rtank. Are you pulling one over on us? Think everyone is in shock that you or anyone could put all those prey animals in with such a collection of fine fish. Did you read about each critter before putting them in?

 

[flatzboy]

I inmagine that the panther ate what he could fit in his mouth and what fish wouldn't fit he just streesed out. And you probably didn't quarintine your fish and introduced a fish that had ick and it sread to the the other fish. I would get the grouper out and try adding a few chromis and see how they do. But first set up a 10 gallon quarintine tank and quarintine all your fish before you put them in there.

 

[gksipps]

Originally posted by robvia
My tank has been running since Feb. It 90 gallons,...
Had two Damsels, clown, yellow tang, coral beauty, panther grouper, and anemone. Things were good, but I wanted it to look better. Had high nitrates and hair algae. I purchased an RO/DI and some plants and trying to get nitrates down.
Added a cardinal, small clown, pseudo chromis, and heniochus butterfly. Also added some soft corals at that point.
Then I got some shrimp, crabs and Naso tang... mushrooms, polyp, leather, and zoos seem to be doing well.
Thanks,
Rob

All I can say is wow. Two words for you. Slow down. If you are in this for the long haul, you can't make your tank look overnight the same as people who have been doing this for years.
Way too many fish for the size tank that you have, and added them too quickly. Assuming a 6 week cycle time, I counted 11 fish, numerous corals, inverts and who knows what else, and you added them all in what, 5 months?!?!?!
**Panic**
Step 1: Slow down. Stop buying fish. Go to the new hobbyist section of swf.com. Read all the stickies you can find.
Step 2: Buy a book on the hobby. And then read it. Several of the stickies recommend which books are the best.
Step 3: You cannot have one of every type of fish out there. Pick your favorites, and take care of them. Acclimate them. Keep an eye on them. Your tank can only handle so many (1 inch of fish per gallon. Not inch of fish "right now straight from the fish store", but inch of fish as full grown. If a yellow tang will grow to 8 inches, but he's only 1 inch now, you count him as 8 inches!)
Step/Tip 4: Don't buy fish on a frequent basis. Buy one or two, let them acclimate. Let the tank's bio system catch up with the increased food and waste. We're talking a month or two between fish purchases, especially at first, and with your track record.
You are on a bad cycle. If you don't at least follow step 1 and 2, you will at some point lose every fish in your tank, and likely every future fish that comes along.
All I can say is I wish you the best of luck.

 

[chandler04]

Might I add that with tangs the inch rule doesnt apply, the inch rule in general is just a guideline. And 1 inch per gallon is not good. You cant put 90 inches of fish in a 90 gallon, that is way too much. One yellow tnag is okay for a 90, just to tell you, but the naso probably stressed on ya and died cuz there wasnt enough room. The grouper was a problem, and keeping a grouper in a reef tank, with shrimp, and clown fish, and corals, is not a good idea. Dead shrimp, dead fish, dead corals. Dead corals becuz the grouper makes lots of poopy and makes water icky. Choose wat u want. If you want a reef, get non aggressive fish. If you want something aggressive, but is reef safe to corals, then go for a smaller lionfish, but no shrimp. It will eat the shrimp. For the ich, im saying you can either treat the whole tank (problem???) or just let the tank sit without any fish in it for quite some time. Without fish to feed on, it will die. During that time, you can allo yer tank to finally cycle and mature. I bleieve you already have PLENTY of nitrates and ammonia from the dead fishies, so now let that sit, work on getting it down, do maybe a 15% water change... Urg, sounds horrible, right? And, yes Gksipps was right in saying that you cant have one of each fish. Most fish just dont go together. I want so many different kinds of fish, but they arent compatible with the ones I have right now. Let this be a learning point. Dont be like me. I never learned until a whole year into the hobby, with many dead fish. Ask...ask...ask...research..ask again...think it through... THEN make a decision. If you do this, then yer fool proof. Sorry about yer losses, and I hope that yer tank turns out beautifully wen yer all done

 

[robvia]

OK, can I have some of my A$$ back now? I certainly have made several mistakes, but I have some questions and am looking for good information
Mary,
You say I have a slaughter tank. Aside from the grouper, what makes it a slaughter tank. The grouper was small and I didn't think had a big enough mouth to eat any of the fish. Doesn't really matter now since I traded it. What else in my tank is making it a slaughter tank? Crabs eat snails. Fact of life, good thing the store has lots of snails. I could take the crabs out and just have the shrimp, but would that be necessary?
Flatzboy,
You are correct. I did not quaranteen like I should have. The cardinal and Butterfly were from the same water at LFS, so I think they came with ich. They spread it to my clown. That will have to be a learning experience.
gksipps and Chandler04,
Guidelines on stocking a tank are hard. There are way to many factors. Aside from one purchase, the fish have been added one or two at a time and 3 to 4 weeks between each add. Maybe I wanted a good looking tank fast than I should have. The plan was to take the yellow tang out at somepoint in the future and replace it with a hippo. I don't think a Naso and Hippo would be to much for a 90 gallon. The tank is also 6 feet long, so they have good swimming length. The tank will stay like it is until I gets the nitrates down. Water quality is my focus now.
I am really starting to like my tank and some things are doing very well. All is not lost and your comments are appreciated.
The urchin eating at the naso seems very strainge to me, if anyone has any comments about that, I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[mary]

Knowing that I have a non-aggressive tank, my LFS will not even sell me urchinns or certain crabs. Red hermit crabs are the only crabs safe. My blues eat the turbos and get their shells. No more for me. Many crabs will injure fish if they can get them. A small furry one that I got out finally injured severally one of my gobies early on. It came in the rock. Nasos grow to 18 inches, and more. Try and look at fish as to how large they get, not the cute babys they are. Nasos need a much larger tank than a ninety. long or not. There are so many beautiful fishes. Get a good book on them, one on community fish. Some urchins may be reef safe, but I would never trust that. Your shrimps are of the variety that will kill other invertebrates . You will never be able to have peppermints or cleaners. We all still make mistakes in our choosing things we really have to have. I do try to read up on specified fish and critters if that info is out there. I have a six line wrasse that is supposed to be reef safe. Forget it. It picks on everything it can. The books all said reef safe. Now there are many fish I can not have because of it. It caused the demise of my beautiful, yet territorial, gramma. Can't trap it. Don't want to disturb my tank again. It causes major chaos with the fish. Tangs aren't so innocent either. Read up on the various kinds. Some are very aggressive. Don'rt get a mimic tang ever. They get very large and are a menace to all inhabitants. They think they are the "alpha" of the tank. Always ask your LFS about the combatability of tankmates. They should know what they are selling and care that they give you the correct info.. Find another responsible LFS if theyare not qualified. Let them know they are losing your business because of their ignorance in what they are selling. They should have a high respect for the ocean life that they are selling and be informed.

 

[robvia]

I'm still a little confused with what you are saying Mary.
I thought the red hermit and scarlet were the same. My scarlet eats the snails. It's not truly reef safe because it is very clumsy and will crawl on anything. I've never head bad things about hermits. I guess the snail eating is a know thing that you just must accept and that's why they don't talk about it.
I've always heard about 12 inches for a Naso and really thought my tank would be plenty big for it. 55 too small 75 marginal at best, but 90 should be OK. I want to get a Naso and Hippo and loose the Yellow. Maybe Hippo and Yellow would be a better idea.
I can understand the urchins being clumsy and pushing over rocks. I never imagined that one could try and suck the brains out of a 4 inch fish. That just seems crazy to me.
I didn't plan on keeping the grouper for a really long time. I figured a year would be the max. The Yellow tang should be fine in a 90, but you are right about them being aggressive. If I hadn't lost the butterfly I wouldn't have gotten the Naso. The Naso didn't come until after I traded the grouper for some mushrooms.
You say my shrimp are the kind that eat other inverts. I'm confused about this. I have a fire, cleaner, gold banded, and 2 peppermints. I was told not to mix peppermints with camelbacks, but everything else I've read doesn't talk about there being a problem.
I guess there are always different views. I will struggle through this. I'm learning.

 

[robvia]

It doesn't look exactly like this right now, but this is close.

 

[mary]

Lost the first letter I started out to write ans poof, it disappeared! ! I re-read your inhabitants and I am sorry. I was thinking od the arrow crab. They destroy many things like your shrimp for instance. People often get them to lessen the load of bristle worms in a very established tank, not realizing they can do harm to other things. Shrimp really ,{peppermint} should have been put in after the tank has been going for sometime, enough to have developed aptasia whereby hobbiest's go and buy them to eat up the aptasia. Each time you put in something more food is required and therefore in a new tank like yours you have put way too many critters in too fast. Butterflys and tangs need really well established tanks, good quality water. Many tangs can not get along together. For a ninety gallon my Regal {Hippo} had to be moved out in a year,. They simply get to stressed with not enough room. It got to be five inches, not one year, within two. Too large for a 90 gal.. I have a ninety gallon also. You need to go slow. I can tell you are really serious and want a great tank. Wait until your tank is at least 6 months to a year, to add fish like you want, but fewer, read a good book on maintenence, monthly water changes, that sort of thing, and slowly put your fish in. Always add a new fish after turning all the lights out, to let it get used to the tank and preventing the other fish which have established their territitorys from harrassing it. Have patience and it will all pay off in the end. Your tank looks good so far but for healthy fish you do need to concentrate on a healthy tank and that takes time and a lot more live rock. At least 100 lbs. I have even more than that and only flow pumps and a skimmer which I believe is essential I've nothing fancy in the way of high tech toys in my sub. 30gal. I've only one act. white and blue lite and three 90 watt actinic, all blue and red. Lots of corals, mostly soft, good variety but it has taken me 9-10 years of stocking it. Chandler has some very good advice also! Good luck and enjoy reading about the hobby!

 

[gksipps]

Mary has some good suggestions. Whenever I add new fish, I also move some of the rocks around. It distracts the established fish and allows everybody time to find their own new hiding place. You're still working on your LR, so this is a harder task for you to accomplish. All in due time...
*Sigh*... I'm sure we've all at one point chalked a few fish up to beginner's "luck". No sense in any of us calling the kettle black, and I wasn't trying to be ugly, just suggesting that you take things slower. We've lost 2 scooter blennies, a tang, and a porcupine puffer in our first 1.5 years. I'd love to get another puffer, (the first one died only because he got caught between the powerhead and the tank, got scared and puffed himself up, which damaged an eye, and caused a fatal infection) but he won't play nice with my other inhabitants, I fear.
Be careful about your sources of information. What works for some people (I have snails, crabs, and shrimp in my tank and they all get along just fine) will not work for others, and vice versa. Don't put all of your faith in the LFS either, because as much as I trust their expertise, I also have to remember that they are in sales... I have two that are local, and what one tells me the other sometimes contradicts...
If I may make one last suggestion... it's time consuming, but in the long term well worth it... lose the crushed coral in favor of a sand bed. We started with CC, read a ton of posts and after about 6 months, went to sand. After having both, I would never go back.
Good luck!

 

[mary]

if this makes you feel any better, we have all in the beginning wanted desperately to get things on the road and made blunders in our choosing, only to find out, oops, we gotta do our own research. Sipps is right in that what works for some doesn't for others. When you are adding ne rock give, work your art and make lots of nooks and crannies of all sizes for the security of all inhabitants. They all need to feel there is a safe hiding place and place at night for them to "bed down". Moving rock around a little, and your at a good place 'cause you will be adding lots mor; with each new addition theh other fish and the new fish will search out for another place toi call their own. I have never done that and could a little just to give the older inhabitants a new challenge when adding that new wrasse sometime in the future. Great idea aside from just turning the lights off. Thanks Sipps. My two neon gobies hide for weeks upon moving rocks and cleaning tank but they will have to cope. Fish are really cute when you do move things around. My pair of clowns do a thorough upside down and every conceivable position to see what I have done and find new "escape" hiding places.

 

[legend]

slow and steady won the race.....you said you had high nitrates; why in the world would you add a cardinal, small clown, pseudo chromis, and heniochus butterfly? Also added some soft corals at that point? If you like throwing away money, throw it my way.
Things in this hobby seem to snow ball so dont rush in....with a little patience im sure your 90g tank will get much better.

 

[kablamo]

I think (which most of the time is my problem, i think- I'm not paid to think!!! so says my boss) that you need a whole lot more live rock. I got a 20 gallon with 20 lbs of live rock, and i really think i need about 10 more lbs, you got a 90 gallon you say? You need more live rock! In reef tanks, Live rock is the best nitrate killer.. i think your nitrate problems will be helped by a whole lot more live rock. Buy in bulk, it's cheaper, so get it all at once.

 

[beanpole12]

I did the same thing when I first started my saltwater tank. One book I swear by is Marine Fishes by Scott W. Michael. Sometimes I even take it to the petstore with me to double-check what the LFS tells me. Good luck with your tank and let us know how it works out.

 

[robvia]

All good suggestions. Hardest part about getting started is you need to know where you want to end up. That is almost impossible. Before I got the Naso everyone said you can't keep 2 of the same kind of tang, but you can mix tangs. I see pictures of many tanks with several tangs. I don't remember the combinations right now. Now that my Naso is dead everyone is telling me you can't mix a yellow with any other kind of tang. A lot (not all the people here) are saying it with a "I can't believe you didn't know that you idiot " tone. Where were all these smart people before. I tried to research it but I guess I didn't here or maybe I didn't want to here the right information. Anyone interested in a good looking yellow tang? Might have a slight tendency to be a little mean. I'm sure with a nice clown trigger in the tank, he can be kept in line.
I had a guy look at my tank the other day and he was very surprised that i have a cleaner, fire, and gold coral banded shrimp in the same tank. I hever heard that would be a problem. I hope they continue to live in harmony. My wife loves the fire shrimp. It's here favorite thing in the tank. I like all the shrimp. They are just great fun to watch.
I will keep trying.

 

[mary]

Your clown trigger with another aggressive fish will not work out when they get larger,yet I am curious with a less agressive fish if it'll work out. Please keep us informed. We all learn from one another. Good luck!

 

[robvia]

The trigger thing was a joke. Sorry I didn't use the

symbol.

 

[moray345]

i cannot believe you what are you doing
:nope: Moray345

 

[robvia]

Thanks for the constructive criticism.