When Bacterium Attack

[rykna]

All of you know I have been on a ongoing search to find answers and resources to help make our seahorse tanks successful.
Since last September I have been cycling and preparing a tank for seahorses. Everything in this tank had been previously bleach, boiled, and sterilized to remove any possible parasitic threats to new tank occupants. I reseeded the tank with cultured pods, and slowly the rock and sand came back to life.
Within the past two weeks I purchased two pairs of Kellogii seahorses. Both pairs died with in days of arrival. Before the second pair died I was able to take them to a local vet and got a very good look at the parasites that were plaguing the sea horses. The small cut of dorsal fin from the male was crawling with two main parasites: Myco Bacterium and Hexamita Bacteria. Myco bacterium is also known as Fish Tuberculosis. This Fish TB can be pasted to humans.
The vet gave me two medications. Metrodazole, to treat the tank. And Ceftazidime, a antibiotic injection for the seahorses.
After talking with a private breeder their suggestion to prevent future infections is to destroy everything in my current DT.

I find this very hard to accept. I could really use some input.
~Rykna

 

[meowzer]

I'm so sorry to hear all that...I have no suggestions for you, just well wishes

 

[teresaq]

I know this is hard. It is what I would have you do also. I would not take the chance of passing on the parisites to healthy horses. I would boil the sand, rock, and bleach the tank. I would throw out any macros and even trade in the snails. I know it too a while to get your pod population up, but beleive me, large horses such as erectus and reidi dont hunt the tiny pods as much as they do amphipods. I never see my pair hunt at all.
I would take dan and abbys advise, if this is who you talked to.
TeresaQ

 

[cleve_seahorse]

I'm so , so sorry this happened .... I too lost my kelloggis..I've turned there tank into a fish only tank and am starting a new tank for another herd of erectus...I just lost big mama jama...my oldest female erectus this morning , so am morning too...but agree with bleaching or starting a new tank

 

[spanko]

I know nothing of keeping seahorses but the story makes one wonder how they survive in a wild setting. Were these tank raised Rykna? Are the tank raised horses immune systems compromised because the lack of exposure to these bacterium over time? Are wild horses, which I know people want to stop, better kept in captivity?

Sorry but inquiring minds need to know!!!!

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3037900
I know nothing of keeping seahorses but the story makes one wonder how they survive in a wild setting. Were these tank raised Rykna? Are the tank raised horses immune systems compromised because the lack of exposure to these bacterium over time? Are wild horses, which I know people want to stop, better kept in captivity?

Sorry but inquiring minds need to know!!!!
As a horse owner, I'd like to know too...I read all these threads just to learn more about them...HOPING that I NEVER need this info...

 

[teresaq]

I think I can answer some of this. Kelloggi are a species no one has had much luck with. They are a deep water species that are net raised in asia for medical use. This means they are raised in the ocean and are exposed to everything. If they were wild, they would have a much more open area with not a lot of contact with other horses other then thier mate. When we take the wild ones into our tanks, there is much less water thus more likely hood of parisites attching to them.
Wild horses have thier own needs, they must be dewormed, and taught to eat frozen. If you can afford to feed a varity of live foods, then maybe that would be better, but I dont know too many that can affored 50 to 60 dollars a month for live food. For this reason keepers teach the wild horses to eat frozen.
T

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by TeresaQ
http:///forum/post/3037955
I think I can answer some of this. Kelloggi are a species no one has had much luck with. They are a deep water species that are net raised in Asia for medical use. This means they are raised in the ocean and are exposed to everything. If they were wild, they would have a much more open area with not a lot of contact with other horses other then their mate. When we take the wild ones into our tanks, there is much less water thus more likely hood of parasites attaching to them.
Wild horses have their own needs, they must be dewormed, and taught to eat frozen. If you can afford to feed a varity of live foods, then maybe that would be better, but I dont know too many that can afford 50 to 60 dollars a month for live food. For this reason keepers teach the wild horses to eat frozen.
T
This is exactly what Dan and Abby( these two are private breeders) said. Kellogii, Kuda, and I think the third Abby said was Barbouri; these seahorses are net collected from coastal areas around Vietnam and then sent on a long journey until they reach our pet stores here in the US. By the time we receive these supposedly "tank raised" seahorses they are infested with parasites and on deaths door.

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by TeresaQ
http:///forum/post/3037769
I know this is hard. It is what I would have you do also. I would not take the chance of passing on the parasites to healthy horses. I would boil the sand, rock, and bleach the tank. I would throw out any macros and even trade in the snails. I know it too a while to get your pod population up, but believe me, large horses such as erectus and reidi don't hunt the tiny pods as much as they do amphipods. I never see my pair hunt at all.
I would take Dan and Abbys advise, if this is who you talked to.
TeresaQ
I can't thank you enough Teresa for introducing me to Dan and Abby. I completely agree and will follow through with Dan and Abby's advise.
This is my current Plan:
Tank, Sand, and Rock:
~Bleach
~Boil
Basically apply this cleaning method to anything that the contaminated seahorses came into contact with. Including feeding tubes, tank scrubbers, heater, filtration system, etc. This part of the sterilizing clean up I have no problem with, however, I do have one HUGE objection to one part of Dan's advise. He said it would be best to discard any coral and or inverts in the tank permanently ! I have two beautiful electric scallops, several gorgonians, several star bursts, many types of zoos, several ricordea mushrooms, and a kenya tree.

Is there anything I can do to save all these corals? I raised most of them from tiny frags! Can I FWD them? I have already treated the entire 38g DT with Metronidazole a antibiotic that the vet prescribed. Dr. Kizer also recommended the same cleansing process that Abby and Dan did, however, I forgot to ask her what to do about the corals and inverts.
If the DT is treated and recycled with the current tank occupants and left void of any fish hosts that the bacterium will starve to death and with in two months the tank will be safe for new seahorses? Can I save my corals?
~Rykna

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3037900
I know nothing of keeping seahorses but the story makes one wonder how they survive in a wild setting. Were these tank raised Rykna? Are the tank raised horses immune systems compromised because the lack of exposure to these bacterium over time? Are wild horses, which I know people want to stop, better kept in captivity?

Sorry but inquiring minds need to know!!!!
I thought these Kelloggii I ordered were tank bred, but the information I received from Abby and Dan lead me to believe other wise.
As for captive bred seahorse immune systems, they can be aided by gut loading food fed to the seahorse fry with dead pureed mysis shrimp, or any other food source with a mature digestive system.

 

[ann83]

Rykna, sorry to hear this happened to you.
On the corals and inverts, unfortunately you really only have 3 options:
1. Destroy/discard them.
2. Keep them in a dedicated quarantined system that doesn't come in contact with any other systems, and in which you don't add any new livestock, until they live out their lifespans. You'll need to use gloves at all times with this system and have completely dedicated equipment, that is sterilized between uses. And never sell or give away anything from this tank.
3. Keep them, expose them to other livestock, and infect the other livestock with mycobacteria. Have health problems with the livestock they come in contact with, and always have to be cautious, sterilize everything, and wear gloves to protect yourself. And never sell or give away anything from the tank(s). Obviously, this is not exactly a responsible option.
Mycobacteria cannot be starved out the way parasites can be. As a bacteria, it can live on without a host, in the water, sand, rock, inverts, and any other substrate, forever. It cannot be gotten rid of through FW dips, lowered temperatures, fallow periods, or any antibiotic that we are able to use. Its nasty, awful, and it completely sucks that you ended up with it. It requires bleach.
The hexamita, on the other hand, is a parasite (flagellate) and can be treated with anti-parasitics like metronidazole and, although I'm not very familiar with this particular flagellate since it isn't often seen in seahorses, can probably be treated with fallow periods as well.
I hope that helps.

 

[ann83]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3037900
I know nothing of keeping seahorses but the story makes one wonder how they survive in a wild setting. Were these tank raised Rykna? Are the tank raised horses immune systems compromised because the lack of exposure to these bacterium over time? Are wild horses, which I know people want to stop, better kept in captivity?

Sorry but inquiring minds need to know!!!!
The "TR" seahorses coming out of Asia like the kelloggi are raised in ways that do make it more likely they will be ill; in close quarters, in the wild, often in environments they aren't native to; then they go through the process of holding tanks and transport and wholesalers; and by the time they get to us, they have been exposed to sooooo many things under such extreme stress, that it is no wonder they are ill.
True captive bred seahorses do not have these problems. They may carry some potentially pathogenic bacteria, since bacteria is everywhere, but they aren't going to have parasites, or the really terrible untreatable bacteria like mycobacteria that can be so devastating.

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by ann83
http:///forum/post/3038234
Rykna, sorry to hear this happened to you.
On the corals and inverts, unfortunately you really only have 3 options:
1. Destroy/discard them.
2. Keep them in a dedicated quarantined system that doesn't come in contact with any other systems, and in which you don't add any new livestock, until they live out their lifespans. You'll need to use gloves at all times with this system and have completely dedicated equipment, that is sterilized between uses. And never sell or give away anything from this tank.
3. Keep them, expose them to other livestock, and infect the other livestock with mycobacteria. Have health problems with the livestock they come in contact with, and always have to be cautious, sterilize everything, and wear gloves to protect yourself. And never sell or give away anything from the tank(s). Obviously, this is not exactly a responsible option.
Mycobacteria cannot be starved out the way parasites can be. As a bacteria, it can live on without a host, in the water, sand, rock, inverts, and any other substrate, forever. It cannot be gotten rid of through FW dips, lowered temperatures, fallow periods, or any antibiotic that we are able to use. Its nasty, awful, and it completely sucks that you ended up with it. It requires bleach.
The hexamita, on the other hand, is a parasite (flagellate) and can be treated with anti-parasitics like metronidazole and, although I'm not very familiar with this particular flagellate since it isn't often seen in seahorses, can probably be treated with fallow periods as well.
I hope that helps.
Well, that kind of sums up what I need to do.
~Destroy all live coral and inverts.
~Boil and Bleach
Substrate, Rock, Tanks, Filter Systems, basically
everything.
~Start over
I can have the tank sterilized, cleaned, and set up by next week. The tank will then be safe and ready for seahorses(not counting cycling)?
~Rykna

 

[reefnutpa]

Remember for your next purchase.... ONLY true captive bred seahorses direct from a breeder or online vendor selling true captive bred seahorses. Also, make sure to QT any new arrivals including the initial pair for at least 2-4 weeks, some recommend longer.
It is also important, when buying from an online vendor to ask them point-blank if any "tank raised" seahorses or WC pipefish are housed in a system that shares water with the captive bred seahorses. If their systems share water - do not buy anything.
Tom

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by ReefNutPA
http:///forum/post/3038298
Remember for your next purchase.... ONLY true captive bred seahorses direct from a breeder or online vendor selling true captive bred seahorses. Also, make sure to QT any new arrivals including the initial pair for at least 2-4 weeks, some recommend longer.
It is also important, when buying from an online vendor to ask them point-blank if any "tank raised" seahorses or WC pipefish are housed in a system that shares water with the captive bred seahorses. If their systems share water - do not buy anything.
Tom
Well, as of two weeks ago the site I order the horses from was a trusted site I've purchased from many times. I have talked to the people about their seahorse source. I was told that they were captive bred from a seahorse farm in Florida. Considering current circumstances I won't be ordering from them any more.

 

[ann83]

Rykna, Sounds like a plan.
Even though I don't trust kelloggi's farther than I can throw them; there is a possibility that the illnesses came from something else. Either something else added to the tank; or from previous seahorses who carried the illness into the tank.

 

[rykna]

One last desperate idea. If I take all the coral and inverts in my tank, bleach them, rinse them off with tap water, and then set them in a QT. If any of them survived would they be safe to place back into the tank?

 

[ann83]

If you bleach them enough to kill the myco, they're not going to survive. You can't soak living things in a bleach solution; and it would be an awfully inhumane way of euthanasia.

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by ann83
http:///forum/post/3038340
If you bleach them enough to kill the myco, they're not going to survive. You can't soak living things in a bleach solution; and it would be an awfully inhumane way of euthanasia.
Your absolutely right. Shortly after posting this, I realized exactly what you wrote. I imagined myself submersed in a bucket of bleach. The obvious result is grizzly and inhumane.

 

[teresaq]

Hi Ann, nice to see you here.
Ryka, sorry about your corals and inverts, but what must be done must be done.
TeresaQ aka chinamom