mudplayerx
Active Member
***)
acrylic51
Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
IMO, this is wrong. Bioballs do not cause nitrate problems, people cause nitrate problems. The things that lead to them with bioballs (build up of gunk and detritus) will ALSO occur if you put a bunch of LR in there. "Just remove the bioballs" is not a solution to a nitrate problem, which has many causes. However, if they will sell you the rock, then by all means, they think it is a great idea.
To really address the problem, I would prefer to see a list of your tank inhabitants, filtration, skimmer, feeding (amount and frequency), water change (amount and frequency), brand of test kit, amount of LR, depth of sand bed, number and types of mechanical filters (something as simple as a sponge or filter pad...do you have one before your bioballs? Do you rinse it every few days?).
Bioballs and biowheels are NOT nitrate factories. They do rapidly and efficiently convert highly toxic ammonia to far less toxic nitrate. I would rather have a nitrate problem any day of the week. They are highly efficient at this role, which is what they are designed for. If they get filled with a lot of detritus and dirt, and are not properly cleaned, then it can be a problem. But in and of themselves they do not cause problems.
If I had an aggressive tank, I would never run it without bioballs. If I have a reef with lots of LR...then they may not be necessary, and the space better used as a refugium or similar.
IMO, this is wrong. Bioballs do not cause nitrate problems, people cause nitrate problems. The things that lead to them with bioballs (build up of gunk and detritus) will ALSO occur if you put a bunch of LR in there. "Just remove the bioballs" is not a solution to a nitrate problem, which has many causes. However, if they will sell you the rock, then by all means, they think it is a great idea.
To really address the problem, I would prefer to see a list of your tank inhabitants, filtration, skimmer, feeding (amount and frequency), water change (amount and frequency), brand of test kit, amount of LR, depth of sand bed, number and types of mechanical filters (something as simple as a sponge or filter pad...do you have one before your bioballs? Do you rinse it every few days?).
Bioballs and biowheels are NOT nitrate factories. They do rapidly and efficiently convert highly toxic ammonia to far less toxic nitrate. I would rather have a nitrate problem any day of the week. They are highly efficient at this role, which is what they are designed for. If they get filled with a lot of detritus and dirt, and are not properly cleaned, then it can be a problem. But in and of themselves they do not cause problems.
If I had an aggressive tank, I would never run it without bioballs. If I have a reef with lots of LR...then they may not be necessary, and the space better used as a refugium or similar.
whitey_028
Member
bio balls are not organic and cannot produce the amount of denitrification bacteria that the live rock can... The live rock basically incorporates more of a fuge for the bacteria and enzymes needed to break down the nitrates... Its not a full proof plan though as i have seen organics get caught in the live rock and create just as much headaches as the bioballs... there are pros and cons to each but my vote is for ditching the bioballs and going for the live rock as its
a: more natural chemical breakdown
b: organic so the bacteria and enzymes created and microalgaes grow better on them and add to the filtration process
c: do the same job as the breaking up of the water as the bioballs do
and the list from a common sense backgroud and doing it myself and seeing results goes on and on...
a: more natural chemical breakdown
b: organic so the bacteria and enzymes created and microalgaes grow better on them and add to the filtration process
c: do the same job as the breaking up of the water as the bioballs do
and the list from a common sense backgroud and doing it myself and seeing results goes on and on...
dynagirl
Member
I am by no means an expert, but I will give you my own personal testimonial.
I have a 54 corner reef tank with 1-2 inches of live sand and about 50 lbs of live rock and a
10 gal sump that had bioballs. I have 1 b&w ocellaris, a yellow wrasse, a coral beauty, 3 chromis, and 1 shrimp goby plus cleanup crew and inverts. I struggled for about 7 months with my nitrates which varied from 20 to 50. I added a refugium with chaeto, cut down on feeding, added more powerheads, washing the bioballs etc. with no improvement. I could not get my nitrates to stay below 20.
I went to a local reef club meeting and some members suggested that I remove the bioballs. The way they explained it to me was that the bacteria in the bioballs is aerobic and breaks wastes down leaving nitrates. The bacteria present in the sand and live rock is anaerobic and is able to break down the wastes more completely not producing nitrates. I was skeptical but I decided to try it. I removed a few handfuls of bioballs a week as I did my weekly 3 gallon water change. I monitored water levels to make sure things stayed stable. After removing all the bioballs, my nitrate levels have decreased and are now in the 0-2 range.
Like I said, I am no expert, but I am a believer. I would like to give a great big caution though, to make sure you have enough live rock to take over the filtration. My tank is not heavily stocked and I exhausted all other options before removing the bioballs.
Just my 2 cents.
I have a 54 corner reef tank with 1-2 inches of live sand and about 50 lbs of live rock and a
10 gal sump that had bioballs. I have 1 b&w ocellaris, a yellow wrasse, a coral beauty, 3 chromis, and 1 shrimp goby plus cleanup crew and inverts. I struggled for about 7 months with my nitrates which varied from 20 to 50. I added a refugium with chaeto, cut down on feeding, added more powerheads, washing the bioballs etc. with no improvement. I could not get my nitrates to stay below 20.
I went to a local reef club meeting and some members suggested that I remove the bioballs. The way they explained it to me was that the bacteria in the bioballs is aerobic and breaks wastes down leaving nitrates. The bacteria present in the sand and live rock is anaerobic and is able to break down the wastes more completely not producing nitrates. I was skeptical but I decided to try it. I removed a few handfuls of bioballs a week as I did my weekly 3 gallon water change. I monitored water levels to make sure things stayed stable. After removing all the bioballs, my nitrate levels have decreased and are now in the 0-2 range.
Like I said, I am no expert, but I am a believer. I would like to give a great big caution though, to make sure you have enough live rock to take over the filtration. My tank is not heavily stocked and I exhausted all other options before removing the bioballs.
Just my 2 cents.
azfishgal
Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
Often people with significant nitrate problems (bad enough that they will make a change) make several changes in their husbandry of the system, that is one thing to consider. Another is that they may in fact clean out the gunk in their sump, which may solve the problem short term. They may see short term benefits and not long...or they may, depending on what changes they make. It is difficult to say without specific studies. But there are also many people who run bioballs or similar (biowheels, etc) without having the "nitrate factory" issue.
I do agree that bioballs may not be needed in the tank. There are arguments that you are creating nitrate "away" from where it is converted to nitrogen.
But I am really very wary of the phrase "nitrate factory" because I believe it is misleading, and oversimplifies a multifaceted problem.
You can indeed remove the bioballs and replace them, and still have trouble.
Point taken, thanks!
Often people with significant nitrate problems (bad enough that they will make a change) make several changes in their husbandry of the system, that is one thing to consider. Another is that they may in fact clean out the gunk in their sump, which may solve the problem short term. They may see short term benefits and not long...or they may, depending on what changes they make. It is difficult to say without specific studies. But there are also many people who run bioballs or similar (biowheels, etc) without having the "nitrate factory" issue.
I do agree that bioballs may not be needed in the tank. There are arguments that you are creating nitrate "away" from where it is converted to nitrogen.
But I am really very wary of the phrase "nitrate factory" because I believe it is misleading, and oversimplifies a multifaceted problem.
You can indeed remove the bioballs and replace them, and still have trouble.
Point taken, thanks!
ophiura
Active Member
Originally Posted by dynagirl
The way they explained it to me was that the bacteria in the bioballs is aerobic and breaks wastes down leaving nitrates. The bacteria present in the sand and live rock is anaerobic and is able to break down the wastes more completely not producing nitrates.
This is partially true. Any bacteria on the SURFACE of things, or in the upper layers, is aerobic, including on the rock and sand, and bioballs.
The deeper areas in larger hunks of LR, or in a deep sand bed, are anaerobic and it is HERE where nitrate itself is converted to nitrogen.
The real argument they are making is that there are many who feel that nitrate produced in the upper layers of a sand bed, or in LR, is acted upon preferentially to nitrate produced elsewhere (eg bioballs) so that you can build up a problem. I wouldn't deny that occurs, and I wouldn't deny that you may not need bioballs in certain systems at all.
But you made several changes which overall contributed to an improvement in the tank, and I think that over time ALL of these make an impact. A refugium, for example, can take a decent amount of time to "kick in" and start really functioning. I would actually say a couple of months, personally.
However, my point is always in and of themselves bioballs do not cause nitrate problems, alone.
stdreb27
Active Member
Originally Posted by rbaldino
There are organisms that convert nitrates, but they need aneorobic areas to thrive, meaning areas that aren't well oxygenated. Apparently you can create this by having a 1-2" bed of sand, which will allow for some areas with poor oxygenation, as long as you don't disturb the sand. This is different than a deep sand bed, which is 3-4" deep.
Why would you say this is different?
There are organisms that convert nitrates, but they need aneorobic areas to thrive, meaning areas that aren't well oxygenated. Apparently you can create this by having a 1-2" bed of sand, which will allow for some areas with poor oxygenation, as long as you don't disturb the sand. This is different than a deep sand bed, which is 3-4" deep.
Why would you say this is different?
R
rasta
Guest
Originally Posted by ophiura
This is partially true. Any bacteria on the SURFACE of things, or in the upper layers, is aerobic, including on the rock and sand, and bioballs.
The deeper areas in larger hunks of LR, or in a deep sand bed, are anaerobic and it is HERE where nitrate itself is converted to nitrogen.
The real argument they are making is that there are many who feel that nitrate produced in the upper layers of a sand bed, or in LR, is acted upon preferentially to nitrate produced elsewhere (eg bioballs) so that you can build up a problem. I wouldn't deny that occurs, and I wouldn't deny that you may not need bioballs in certain systems at all.
But you made several changes which overall contributed to an improvement in the tank, and I think that over time ALL of these make an impact. A refugium, for example, can take a decent amount of time to "kick in" and start really functioning. I would actually say a couple of months, personally.
However, my point is always in and of themselves bioballs do not cause nitrate problems, alone.
So would you recommend bio-balls in my system that I am working on right now:
220 with dual overflows
325 lbs. of live rock
1-2" live sand base
Fuge that will be about 25-30 gallons w/ LR & LS of course
I will eventually have about 2 tangs, foxface, mated pair of clowns, a few chromis, watchman goby. Probably some corals down the road. I am planning on going very slowly to allow the tank and fuge to be very stable before I start adding livestock.
I appreciate your posts because the guy at my LFS seems to have the exact opinions that you do and he is the only one around here to be saying these things so I was having trouble deciding on my setup. Your input (or anyone else's) is appreciated.
This is partially true. Any bacteria on the SURFACE of things, or in the upper layers, is aerobic, including on the rock and sand, and bioballs.
The deeper areas in larger hunks of LR, or in a deep sand bed, are anaerobic and it is HERE where nitrate itself is converted to nitrogen.
The real argument they are making is that there are many who feel that nitrate produced in the upper layers of a sand bed, or in LR, is acted upon preferentially to nitrate produced elsewhere (eg bioballs) so that you can build up a problem. I wouldn't deny that occurs, and I wouldn't deny that you may not need bioballs in certain systems at all.
But you made several changes which overall contributed to an improvement in the tank, and I think that over time ALL of these make an impact. A refugium, for example, can take a decent amount of time to "kick in" and start really functioning. I would actually say a couple of months, personally.
However, my point is always in and of themselves bioballs do not cause nitrate problems, alone.
So would you recommend bio-balls in my system that I am working on right now:
220 with dual overflows
325 lbs. of live rock
1-2" live sand base
Fuge that will be about 25-30 gallons w/ LR & LS of course
I will eventually have about 2 tangs, foxface, mated pair of clowns, a few chromis, watchman goby. Probably some corals down the road. I am planning on going very slowly to allow the tank and fuge to be very stable before I start adding livestock.
I appreciate your posts because the guy at my LFS seems to have the exact opinions that you do and he is the only one around here to be saying these things so I was having trouble deciding on my setup. Your input (or anyone else's) is appreciated.
gwh57
Member
It is unfortunate that almost everytime you read a post concerning Bioballs most of the posters all state the same poor information that Bioballs = nitrates.
I think these people just continue to repeat what they have read and never look for the real answer. I have Bioballs and no nitrates.
I think these people just continue to repeat what they have read and never look for the real answer. I have Bioballs and no nitrates.
catawaba
Active Member
BioBalls = good in the right system...lots of surface area and water is filtered twice before it gets to them (in my system.)
I run a wet/dry with bioballs on my reef, which also has a deep sand bed and about 2lbs/gal of live rock.
Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate very fast. Then nitrate to Nitrogen and Oxygen quite quickly. One hand holds the other.
Water changes, still, keep everything in balance at nitrogen = 5-10. There's no escaping those.
***)
I run a wet/dry with bioballs on my reef, which also has a deep sand bed and about 2lbs/gal of live rock.
Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate very fast. Then nitrate to Nitrogen and Oxygen quite quickly. One hand holds the other.
Water changes, still, keep everything in balance at nitrogen = 5-10. There's no escaping those.
***)
ophiura
Active Member
Originally Posted by Rasta
So would you recommend bio-balls in my system that I am working on right now:
220 with dual overflows
325 lbs. of live rock
1-2" live sand base
Fuge that will be about 25-30 gallons w/ LR & LS of course
I will eventually have about 2 tangs, foxface, mated pair of clowns, a few chromis, watchman goby. Probably some corals down the road. I am planning on going very slowly to allow the tank and fuge to be very stable before I start adding livestock.
IMO, your tank will be rather lightly stocked (as is typical for a coral tank) and the live rock should be more than enough (along with a fuge) to handle that load. I would say you will be fine without bioballs.
Take that 220, with less rock, but with predators? Larger tangs, triggers, big angels, puffers, etc? There is no way I would run it, personally, without a wet dry and a big skimmer.
So would you recommend bio-balls in my system that I am working on right now:
220 with dual overflows
325 lbs. of live rock
1-2" live sand base
Fuge that will be about 25-30 gallons w/ LR & LS of course
I will eventually have about 2 tangs, foxface, mated pair of clowns, a few chromis, watchman goby. Probably some corals down the road. I am planning on going very slowly to allow the tank and fuge to be very stable before I start adding livestock.
IMO, your tank will be rather lightly stocked (as is typical for a coral tank) and the live rock should be more than enough (along with a fuge) to handle that load. I would say you will be fine without bioballs.
Take that 220, with less rock, but with predators? Larger tangs, triggers, big angels, puffers, etc? There is no way I would run it, personally, without a wet dry and a big skimmer.
O
olexa1
Guest
Whether you run your system with live rock and live sand in a sump or a wet/dry sump with bio balls, the key is to have a good protein skimmer to remove the gunk and detritus before it starts into the nitrogen cycle.
Changing from bio balls to live rock and live sand in the sump jusy cuts down on some cleaning chores.
Changing from bio balls to live rock and live sand in the sump jusy cuts down on some cleaning chores.
95harley
Active Member
I persoanlly have never been in a hobby with so much conflicting info out there as Saltwater tanks.
I have only been into salt for 1yr of FOWLR so I'm by no means an expert. However, I've kept FW fish successfully for almost 20 yrs. I try to carefully research every move I make to not take any chances.
My understanding of the cycle:
1. Fish Poo & Left over Food = Ammonia (very bad)
2. Bacteria from the Fish Poo breaks down the Ammonia = Nitrites (very bad)
3. Water flowing over balls (At least 50-60% out of water)
breaks down the Nitrites = Nitrates (Not nearly as harmful to fish).
4. Water changes and filter cleaning to reduce amounts of Nitrates.
I have yet to really grasp the whole "Live" Rock thing would break down trates, but I'd love to understand it...if someone would indulge.
So if you replace your Bio-Balls that are 1/2 out of water and do not allow the water to rain over an object but instead submerge even more LR in your sump where does the Nitirite to Nitrate breakdown happen?
I'm very curious to this as I am about to move my predators to a 240 w/ 300lbs of LR and a Wet/Dry w/ 2 compartments full of Bioballs and no extra LR in the sump.
So I'm curious if I'm setting myself up correctly.
I have only been into salt for 1yr of FOWLR so I'm by no means an expert. However, I've kept FW fish successfully for almost 20 yrs. I try to carefully research every move I make to not take any chances.
My understanding of the cycle:
1. Fish Poo & Left over Food = Ammonia (very bad)
2. Bacteria from the Fish Poo breaks down the Ammonia = Nitrites (very bad)
3. Water flowing over balls (At least 50-60% out of water)
breaks down the Nitrites = Nitrates (Not nearly as harmful to fish).
4. Water changes and filter cleaning to reduce amounts of Nitrates.
I have yet to really grasp the whole "Live" Rock thing would break down trates, but I'd love to understand it...if someone would indulge.
So if you replace your Bio-Balls that are 1/2 out of water and do not allow the water to rain over an object but instead submerge even more LR in your sump where does the Nitirite to Nitrate breakdown happen?
I'm very curious to this as I am about to move my predators to a 240 w/ 300lbs of LR and a Wet/Dry w/ 2 compartments full of Bioballs and no extra LR in the sump.
So I'm curious if I'm setting myself up correctly.
ophiura
Active Member
Live rock, and a deep sand bed, break down NITRATES because deep in them, there is no oxygen. The bacteria that convert nitrate to nitrogen predominantly live in these anaerobic areas. Therefor live rock and a deep sand bed can lower nitrate levels.
ALL surfaces in the tank...glass walls, bioballs, live rock, submerged or otherwise, grow the bacteria that covert ammonia to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate. It is not just happening with the water flowing over the bioballs, it is happening elsewhere too. However, bioballs in their high oxygen environment happen to promote growth of bacteria and do this extremely effectively.
If I had a predator tank of any kind, I would ABSOLUTELY run it with bioballs and a good skimmer. That may just be me, but as I've said, I would much rather have a nitrate problem then an ammonia problem.
ALL surfaces in the tank...glass walls, bioballs, live rock, submerged or otherwise, grow the bacteria that covert ammonia to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate. It is not just happening with the water flowing over the bioballs, it is happening elsewhere too. However, bioballs in their high oxygen environment happen to promote growth of bacteria and do this extremely effectively.
If I had a predator tank of any kind, I would ABSOLUTELY run it with bioballs and a good skimmer. That may just be me, but as I've said, I would much rather have a nitrate problem then an ammonia problem.
J
jrthomas40
Guest
Originally Posted by whitey_028
Place the rubble rock where the bio balls were...
i havent had any problems out of my bioballs and nitrates and my sump has been running them for about 4 months
Place the rubble rock where the bio balls were...
i havent had any problems out of my bioballs and nitrates and my sump has been running them for about 4 months
jpa0741
Member
I need some advice on this one. I currently have a 92g with a 55g sump/fuge/wetdry. I have a mixed reef and my nitrates run around 10. I have about 120lbs of lr and I think around a 100lbs of ls (can't remember). My fuge has just lr and chaeto in it. Although the chaeto has pretty much all died since I added my phosban reactor. I have removed a couple handfulls of bioballs sofar, and was planning on putting another skimmer in that compartment when they are all out (I have an extra coralife laying around). But I am unsure if I should leave well enough alone or continue with removing them. Please give me some input on this. Here are a couple pics to show my current setup.
gwh57
Member
I think the answer is written in this post. BioBalls do not create Nitrates. If you are not having any chemistry problems now then I would not remove them. If you clean them they will be fine. If you allow them to get clogged and filthy then they may harbot Nitrates. I have them and have zero nitrates.