Why we are losing the war in Iraq...

[dw62]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
Alliances...I get sick when I hear of relating how I should feel about if the rest of the world likes US or not. I really don't care. Our little alliance within, both Democrat and Republican, realized that something had to be done about Saddam. BTW, so did the rest of the "real world".
Dems say GW is a moron, but he must be pretty slick to pull the wool over their eyes on this one, eh. Master manipulator. Bwwwhhaaahhaaa.

Whether we like it or not, the world is becoming a smaller place to where there needs to be a UN or something like it.
I am neither a Dem nor a Republican. I am an independent who educates himself as to what the real deal is and then I make up my own mind. The truth is there for those who look for it, and are willing to decide for themselves, instead of their political party affiliations.

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by crimzy
I assume you're referencing the movie, Fahrenheit 9/11. Do you know why Michael Moore did not get sued for slander from that film? BECAUSE THE FACTS REVEALED WERE TRUE. While the opinion aspect is subjective, even Bush couldn't argue with the facts.
I'll bet we could go back through all someone's posts and arrange them in a way and present it enough to make them out to be a child molester. It's all in editing, context, and presentation.

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by DW62
Whether we like it or not, the world is becoming a smaller place to where there needs to be a UN or something like it.
I am neither a Dem nor a Republican. I am an independent who educates himself as to what the real deal is and then I make up my own mind. The truth is there for those who look for it, and are willing to decide for themselves, instead of their political party affiliations.
Same here.

 

[crimzy]

Some interesting statistics...
1) FOR THOSE WHO THINK THEY WANT US THERE...
"RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)
Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%
Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%
Iraqis who feel less ecure because of the occupation - 67%
Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%"
But they want us there, right?
2) FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM WE "LIBERATED" THE COUNTRY...
QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS
Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,085,000
Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 1.3 million to 1.75 million
Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect
Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%
Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 25% in May 2006
Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%
Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000
Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000
Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000
Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007, "N/A" in June, July 2007
Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007, "N/A" in June, July 2007
Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24
Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%
Percentage of Iraqi Homes with Access to Piped Water - 78%
Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%
FOR THOSE WHO THINK THAT US SPENDING IN IRAQ IS APPROPRIATE...
Spent & Approved War-Spending - Over $600 billion of US taxpayers' funds. President Bush is expected to request another $140 billion for 2008, which would bring the cumulative total to close to $750 billion.
U.S. Monthly Spending in Iraq - $12 billion, in 2007
U.S. Daily Spending in Iraq - over $200 million, in 2007
Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq - $9 billion of US taxpayers' money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors
Mismanaged & Wasted in Iraq - $10 billion, per Feb 2007 Congressional hearings
Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported - $1.4 billion
FINALLY...
3,628 US Soldiers Killed, 26,806 Seriously Wounded
http://usliberals.about.com/od/homel...raqNumbers.htm

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by DW62
Whether we like it or not, the world is becoming a smaller place to where there needs to be a UN or something like it.
I am neither a Dem nor a Republican. I am an independent who educates himself as to what the real deal is and then I make up my own mind. The truth is there for those who look for it, and are willing to decide for themselves, instead of their political party affiliations.
Agreed. That's why I like to participate in discussions like this. For instance, your remark that the leading nations of the world said Saddam didn't have WMD's. That's a commonly stated line to attack the war effort. Some basic searching, however, proves it to be false. The leading nations of the world thought Saddam had WMD's, and the fact that Saddam continually blocked UN inspectors is what lead to the war.

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Some interesting statistics...
1) FOR THOSE WHO THINK THEY WANT US THERE...
"RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)
Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%
Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%
Iraqis who feel less ecure because of the occupation - 67%
Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%"
But they want us there, right?
2) FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM WE "LIBERATED" THE COUNTRY...
QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS
Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,085,000
Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 1.3 million to 1.75 million
Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect
Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%
Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 25% in May 2006
Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%
Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000
Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000
Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000
Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007, "N/A" in June, July 2007
Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007, "N/A" in June, July 2007
Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24
Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%
Percentage of Iraqi Homes with Access to Piped Water - 78%
Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%
FOR THOSE WHO THINK THAT US SPENDING IN IRAQ IS APPROPRIATE...
Spent & Approved War-Spending - Over $600 billion of US taxpayers' funds. President Bush is expected to request another $140 billion for 2008, which would bring the cumulative total to close to $750 billion.
U.S. Monthly Spending in Iraq - $12 billion, in 2007
U.S. Daily Spending in Iraq - over $200 million, in 2007
Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq - $9 billion of US taxpayers' money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors
Mismanaged & Wasted in Iraq - $10 billion, per Feb 2007 Congressional hearings
Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported - $1.4 billion
FINALLY...
3,628 US Soldiers Killed, 26,806 Seriously Wounded
http://usliberals.about.com/od/homel...raqNumbers.htm
Look at where you got the info. Of course they can write anything they want and get someone to believe it.
Check out Micheal Yon in a google search. Embedded reporter with the troops. Non party affiliated. Speaks the truth of what he sees.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
Look at where you got the info. Of course they can write anything they want and get someone to believe it.
So you'll disregard the facts because you don't like the source? Keep looking away... it won't make the facts disappear.

 

[1journeyman]

Grim statistics Crimzy. Here's some more positive ones. Take a browse through http://www.theotheriraq.com for a much brighter picture of large portions of Iraq.
In the Kurdish North (5 million Iraqis and growing), not a single coalition soldier has been killed since March 2003.
65% of the villages Saddam razed have been rebuilt by the regional government installed in May 2006
5 Universities have opened, and an American University is scheduled to open in 2008

 

[1journeyman]

Let me ask another question.
Define "losing" Crimzy.

 

[meleerock]

Originally Posted by crimzy
I assume you're referencing the movie, Fahrenheit 9/11. Do you know why Michael Moore did not get sued for slander from that film? BECAUSE THE FACTS REVEALED WERE TRUE. While the opinion aspect is subjective, even Bush couldn't argue with the facts.
Im not saying the facts are not true I am just saying it is easy winning someone over when listing only the negative facts and not the positive.
Although this thread may be a fun debate dont expect to see me in it. People have different views, thats what makes the US so great.

 

[crimzy]

This thread started as a discussion of the dangers of the arab coalition in Iraq. However, as most of these discussions go, the topic tends to jump around. So I'll jump a little more.

Interesting that the chief weapons inspector did not feel the war was justified. If you want to read about what Hans Blox had to say, read below.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0305-01.htm

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Let me ask another question.
Define "losing" Crimzy.
Interesting question... I'd say losing in this context would be the failure to make progress and achieve our goals. All in the context of suffering massive American losses.
By this logic, we did get Saddam, however we also through the country into a civil war, failed to bring security or stability to the region. And regarding the WMD that we didn't find (and we didn't find them, we only found laboratories that were spun into evidence of WMD), now that Iran is there, there is much more of a concern in that area. Oh, and by the way, we created thousands, if not millions of new terrorists. All of the while with no end in sight.
This is my definition of losing.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Agreed. That's why I like to participate in discussions like this. For instance, your remark that the leading nations of the world said Saddam didn't have WMD's. That's a commonly stated line to attack the war effort. Some basic searching, however, proves it to be false. The leading nations of the world thought Saddam had WMD's, and the fact that Saddam continually blocked UN inspectors is what lead to the war.
Sadly I think it is hopeless, these clearly unsupportable sound bite arguments, are so juvinile it makes me cry that someone can really believe them.
Bush lied about wmds.
We are there for revenge.
We are creating terrorists.
Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism.
We can't win.
Bush is stupid.
No one thought but Bush that there were WMDs.
Michael Moore is a good source for information.
Plame was covert.
Lybia wasn't trying to sell yellow cake.
And a mountain of other misleading arguments.
People just can't think for themselves anymore.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by crimzy
This thread started as a discussion of the dangers of the arab coalition in Iraq. However, as most of these discussions go, the topic tends to jump around. So I'll jump a little more.

Interesting that the chief weapons inspector did not feel the war was justified. If you want to read about what Hans Blox had to say, read below.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0305-01.htm
Seriously, I don't think that he really is a valid resource, the way Iraq ran circles around his inspection teams. And his failure to inspect the weapons sites. If you want to Blaim a war on someone we should blaim him.

 

[1journeyman]

There is no "arab coalition"... The fact is, many of the governments in the Middle East would collpase if it were not for us supporting them.
Iran is fueling the insurgency in Iraq. No news there. They have been on/off at war with Iraq for 20+ years. Quoting the Iranian diplomat is classic. I wonder if he felt sympathy for the Iraqis when they were slaughtering civilians on the border, or if he feels sympathy for the women stoned to death in his own country every year.
Syria has supported terrorist groups for years. No doubt it is continuing today.
Saudi Arabia? Large population of extremists. Undoubtedly some are in Iraq.
Kuwait? No way.. they are too secular. There population would be looted and slaughtered AGAIN if extremists gain control in the region.
The list goes on... we are undoubtedly fighting crazies from around the world, but the only governments involved are Iran and possibly Syria.
Hans Blix is a failure. If he had done his job we wouldn't be at war in Iraq. He failed for months to gain access to sensitive sites. That's what lead to the war.

 

[crimzy]

Let me just ask this of the pro-war people... honestly because I don't understand the support... what is so good about this war? what will it accomplish? where will we be when it's over? when will you say "enough is enough" and support bringing home our troops?

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Let me just ask this of the pro-war people... honestly because I don't understand the support... what is so good about this war? what will it accomplish? where will we be when it's over? when will you say "enough is enough" and support bringing home our troops?
Currently I have 2 cousins over there. This is what they asked you cut and runners.
If you are walking down the streets of NYC. And you are a marine, special forces, trained in hand to hand combat, basically there isn't anyone who would beat you in a fight. And you are armed. You look down in a corner and hear this girl screaming, she is getting mugged and raped by some two bit criminal. What are you going to do?
This is the question that we were faced ultimately.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Interesting question... I'd say losing in this context would be the failure to make progress and achieve our goals. All in the context of suffering massive American losses.
By this logic, we did get Saddam, however we also through the country into a civil war, failed to bring security or stability to the region. And regarding the WMD that we didn't find (and we didn't find them, we only found laboratories that were spun into evidence of WMD), now that Iran is there, there is much more of a concern in that area. Oh, and by the way, we created thousands, if not millions of new terrorists. All of the while with no end in sight.
This is my definition of losing.
Massive US casualties? We almost as many troops in the opening hours of D-Day then we've lost in 5 years in Iraq.
WMD's were found. Left over shells of Mustard and Sarin gas shells from the Iraq/Iran war have been found. Not what we were looking for, but they are proof there could always be more.
Iran was always in the region.. This is the amusing part of this conversation. The Left scream that we've created a power vacuum in the region and given Iran an advantage, yet scream that we supported Iraq against Iran... Choose a side.. you can't play both.
Created new terrorists? That's silly. They weren't having a hard time recruiting before 9-11. What, do they hate us more now? Did Clinton create more terrorists when he bombed Iraq in 98? Did we create more when we liberated Kuwait?
Progress is being made in Iraq, btw... you just have to see it.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
Currently I have 2 cousins over there. This is what they asked you cut and runners.
If you are walking down the streets of NYC. And you are a marine, special forces, trained in hand to hand combat, basically there isn't anyone who would beat you in a fight. And you are armed. You look down in a corner and hear this girl screaming, she is getting mugged and raped by some two bit criminal. What are you going to do?
This is the question that we were faced ultimately.
Interesting... your words spark emotion yet lack any basis in fact or logic. How about the words of an American General stating that we are losing this war...
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/met...z.3538bac.html

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Let me just ask this of the pro-war people... honestly because I don't understand the support... what is so good about this war? what will it accomplish? where will we be when it's over? when will you say "enough is enough" and support bringing home our troops?
The best thing about the war is that we're using our military to fight Al Qeada instead of pilots, flight attendants and air marshalls. And we're fighting in the streets and deserts of Iraq. By your own admission we're fighting Al Qeada over there.
It will accomplish several things (if we stay the course): another Democracy in the Middle East, the removal of an unstable dictator who at one time had the 4th largest military in the world, the removal of a government that used WMD's, and most importantly it puts countries like N Korea on notice that we can/will take them out if they attack our allies or refuse weapons inspectors.
I'll never say "enough is enough". When will Al Qaeda you think?