Why we are losing the war in Iraq...

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by triviachamp
I have said the country as a whole cannot function as a democracy, because the will of the people is not there, and that is because of the resistance towards any sort of democratic movement. Pulling out slivers of happy, cheery Iraqis won't change that reality.
First, don't put words in my mouth. Second, none of what you said makes sense.
Fighting in Iraq will not prevent Al Qaeda from coming here, and it is that waste of resources that makes it a bad idea. There is no contradiction in what I've said.
You still have not answered my question; what is it that is preventing Al Qaeda from attacking us again? I also did a quick bit of fact checking, and your claim that there was 80% turnout in the Iraqi election is a complete lie. Try 58%. In any case, foreign intervention is none of our business, and we have nothing to gain by allowing the Iraqi government to use us as a crutch. There is no justification for wasting the $500 billion in tax dollars we've spending on Iraq.
You claim the country cannot function as a Democracy, yet much of it already is... seems to me to be a contradiction.
Fighting in Iraq helps prevent them from coming here. First off, becase of the intelligence we are gaining from captured info and Al Qaeda members, Second because it draws away from their resources, Third is draws away from their manpower. Al Qaeda attacked us 7 times during Clinton's administration when we weren't fighting them overseas. They have failed to mount another serious attack against us since 9-11, though by all accounts they have geared up their attempts. Something we are doing is working.
What words did I put in your mouth exactly?
Speaking of putting words in your mouth, where did I claim 80% of Iraqis voted?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by triviachamp
...Of course we haven't won. We don't know what victory is. We haven't won a war since WWII.
But I thought were were there because we wanted to help the Iraqis? Or because the evildoers will follow us home if we leave? It appears you don't even know either.
We haven't "won" a war since WWII because as:
Americans we've lost the will to follow through
We allow the UN to run our foreign affairs for us
The media, politicians, and arm-chair generals second guess the battlefield commanders.
I know exactly what victory is; A Freely elected, self-sustaining Iraqi government capable of defending their own borders.

 

[mike22cha]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
How many soldiers?? When your doing this "sweep", how do you keep him from sneaking into Utah?
Exactly, that's why we needed more troops in there searching. Plus if we didn't invade Iraq then maybe some of the Middle Eastern countries would cooperate with us.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by crimzy
One more question... can you please identify a single act of terrorism committed against the US by Iraq before the war started? Want a hint?

I n 1993, the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) directed and pursued an attempt to assassinate, through the use of a powerful car bomb, former U.S. President George Bush and the Emir of Kuwait. Kuwaiti authorities thwarted the terrorist plot and arrested 16 suspects, led by two Iraqi nationals.
Iraq shelters terrorist groups including the Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MKO), which has used terrorist violence against Iran and in the 1970s was responsible for killing several U.S. military personnel and U.S. civilians.
Iraq shelters several prominent Palestinian terrorist organizations in Baghdad, including the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), which is known for aerial attacks against Israel and is headed by Abu Abbas, who carried out the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro and murdered U.S. citizen Leon Klinghoffer.
Iraq shelters the Abu Nidal Organization, an international terrorist organization that has carried out terrorist attacks in twenty countries, killing or injuring almost 900 people. Targets have included the United States and several other Western nations. Each of these groups have offices in Baghdad and receive training, logistical assistance, and financial aid from the government of Iraq.
Pay special attention to this one after the world denounced terrorism and joined in us in agreeance that ALL terrorists nomatter what their affiliation would be rooted out and removed....The next one is huge as it occurred after 9/11...
In April 2002, Saddam Hussein increased from $10,000 to $25,000 the money offered to families of Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers. The rules for rewarding suicide/homicide bombers are strict and insist that only someone who blows himself up with a belt of explosives gets the full payment. Payments are made on a strict scale, with different amounts for wounds, disablement, death as a "martyr" and $25,000 for a suicide bomber. Mahmoud Besharat, a representative on the West Bank who is handing out to families the money from Saddam, said, "You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue."
Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret terrorist training facility in Iraq known as Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains, planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations.

 

[stdreb27]

Sorry, according to the washingpost it was 63% They approved their constitution by 70%. We haven't had that much voter turnout since 1960. And according to dems a photo ID is to much of a burdon for a voter to aquire.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by MIKE22cha
Exactly, that's why we needed more troops in there searching. Plus if we didn't invade Iraq then maybe some of the Middle Eastern countries would cooperate with us.

How many middle eastern countries were cooperating with us before Iraq? Hmmm...the exact same amount as now....
I have a question I have never understoof for those oppossed to the WAR. When the body count was 500 people were saying it is costing to many American lives. Is it truly the amount of American deaths that bother you or the fact you do not want to see a country possibly have a legitimate Democracy in the middle east that would be friendly towards the U.S. possibly in the future.
See I look at history and if it is lives lost that is driving you to want a pull out in Iraq Then I truly feel this country is no longer willing to sacrifice anymore. Look at our History, to major world wars could have been avoided if the U.S. would have stepped in right away...instead we were the last to join in world war I and II. Our inaction caused much sufferring and death around the world and ultimately cost us far mor American lives in the end. I firmly believ, the one time we were preemptive and and entered the scenario first we have saved many lives around the world and to our own citizens, whether they be Military or civilians.
Look at Iran, by procrastinating and trying to negotiate with another country leader that does not want to listen or does not care about lives of others we are facing a future nuclear threat by a regime of madmen. Sure, if we went into Iran now it would cost us lives and money.....not to mention the global community as well. By going in ahead of time how many lives might we save? This was the same situation with IRAQ...EVER cvountry in the world believed Hussein was dangerous and a threat....Every country believed he was building up or trying to.
Basically what I am saying is many say those 3000 gave their lives for nothing....I say they gave there lives for our freedom....For if they hadn't and we didn't go to war with Iraq....How many potential lives would Saddam have attempted to snuff out and how much more suffering would he have caused....Is that number higher? I believe so.
How every I don't feel that region is ready to accept a democracy basically because you have to many people with thousand year old feuds....

 

[rylan1]

We can all go back and forth with our statistics and our theories of who is responsible for this war. My question is what is the solution? We are not winning this war because though we have far less casualties and have blown up a lot of stuff, we are no where close to achieving our goals, and I don't think there was/is a clear plan/goal to start with. And this starts from the top down with our leadership.
Secondly, I wonder how many soilders Al Queda has been able to recruit since we first went into Afganistan and Iraq? I'm sure the majority of these extremist have only been invloved for a short time and that if we weren't over there that there would be less of them as a whole.
Third, these extremist are still here in America, and they are still trying to attack. That hasn't changed. I just read a report about plane passengers trying dry-run attacks to see if some type of plastic explosive would pass through security.
So again, what is the solution in Iraq? Are the borders secured, or are these extremist flocking across the borders, just as illegals are doing here in the States?

 

[reefraff]

I think they are willing to accept their version of a democracy. They showed that by the numbers they voted in. I think it is a matter of how much they are willing to fight for it.
One thing the majority of anti war politicians could do is to get behind the effort rather than undercutting it. They don't need to go along with Bushes plan to do that. Go to the region and hold a summit with with the commanders and see what it would take to put down the insurgency. If it is reasonable come back and create a plan a majority of both side will support and give it a shot. Give the Iraq government a absolute time table for when they must be ready to secure Baghdad. If they can do that we can repeat the process in the remaining problem areas and then get the hell out.
I don't think we should waste lives in a losing effort but given the numbers of people there who voted I still think this can work. One thing that needs to happen is the majority of the politicians and people in this country need to be supportive of the effort. If we can't get back there it will never work because everytime a politician says it is lost or a poll show public support is fading away it bolsters the insurgents. That is a big part of what hapened in Viet Nam.

 

[seasalt101]

the only thing we are losing in iraq is our support, i hear so much crap about how i support our troops blah blah blah and if you all meant it democrats would not be trying to get us out they would support the war and the fact that we are making huge strides for democracy just goes by unnoticed their still blowin themselves up and killing civillians how do we know 1st off if they are not daytime civillians and nightime terrorist? just because they are in the street makes them civillians? this will go on it is a last act of a desparate culture remember kamikazes? why don't you people that say you support our troops let your congressman know and maybe we could get the fight back where it belongs and off capitol hill...tobin

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
........Basically what I am saying is many say those 3000 gave their lives for nothing....I say they gave there lives for our freedom....For if they hadn't and we didn't go to war with Iraq....How many potential lives would Saddam have attempted to snuff out and how much more suffering would he have caused....Is that number higher? I believe so.
....
Don't forget, those same brave men and women have also died for the freedom of the Iraqi people as well.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by seasalt101
the only thing we are losing in iraq is our support, i hear so much crap about how i support our troops blah blah blah and if you all meant it democrats would not be trying to get us out they would support the war and the fact that we are making huge strides for democracy just goes by unnoticed their still blowin themselves up and killing civillians how do we know 1st off if they are not daytime civillians and nightime terrorist? just because they are in the street makes them civillians? this will go on it is a last act of a desparate culture remember kamikazes? why don't you people that say you support our troops let your congressman know and maybe we could get the fight back where it belongs and off capitol hill...tobin
Don't paint with too broad a brush. Not all Dems are against the war just like not all Pubs support it. I just don't think they need to be throwing their hands in the air saying it can't work. Go sit down with the people who are there and see what they think. If there is a decent chance lets come up with a plan and get people behind it. Thats probably what the insurgents fear the most.

 

[rbaldino]

It wouldn't surprise me if people in early 1863 had thought the American Civil War was lost, or if in the winter of 1944 people felt Hitler couldn't be beat when the Germans launched the Ardennes Offensive. Wars aren't easily won, freedom isn't easily secured. Imagine if we had given up back then...

 

[clown boy]

Wow, this is sad. Real sad. I can't believe how easy it is for people to believe lies.
I'd like to know one Conservative Republican that has been regarded as good in the last 20 years.
There are virtually none. Why? BECAUSE OF THE DEMOCRATIC CONTROL OF THE MEDIA!
The process is as follows:
A democrat becomes president and gets this country into a militarial and financial mess. The media covers everything up and says, "Oh, he's just human."
Then a republican becomes president, and all of a sudden, the media points out everything wrong with the nation and blames the conservative. The public can't tell... and the result is a president who tries to do his best to run the country... and is hated by the people.

It is the truth.
~ Clown Boy

 

[clown boy]

Originally Posted by rbaldino
It wouldn't surprise me if people in early 1863 had thought the American Civil War was lost, or if in the winter of 1944 people felt Hitler couldn't be beat when the Germans launched the Ardennes Offensive. Wars aren't easily won, freedom isn't easily secured. Imagine if we had given up back then...

Well said!

 

[rylan1]

A republican has put us back in a financial mess. If I recall we did have a balanced budget not to long ago, which is another issue.
Anywho, that region will never have a democracy like we want it. Its the oldest region in the world and they have never had a democracy, the people don't want a democracy. That's part of the problem, they view democracy as a western philosophy and they want nothing to do with it. We want to be able to have our influence in that area, and simply we do not want to put our trust in a king or dictator.
So back to my orginal question... if we are winning the war- what have we really accomplished and what is our exit strategy or time table? What is our goal and how are we measuring it? Or are we just running around over there and coming up with a plan as we go?
Its not about giving up... its about having a direction

 

[clown boy]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
A republican has put us back in a financial mess. If I recall we did have a balanced budget not to long ago, which is another issue.
Case and point.... Didn't you read my post?
Originally Posted by Rylan1
So back to my orginal question... if we are winning the war- what have we really accomplished and what is our exit strategy or time table? What is our goal and how are we measuring it? Or are we just running around over there and coming up with a plan as we go?
Its not about giving up... its about having a direction
Did the US have an exit plan when they entered WW1 or WW2? No... they planned as they went. It's like they say, "Wars are better fought by soldiers then polititions.

 

[1journeyman]

1. Our economy is stronger than ever. The deficit is an issue, but let's not forget that it was a Republican Congess that balanced the budget. Also let's not foget that we were in a recession in 2000. We also were not at war.
2. Israel is a Democracy. They are in the same region. I'm fairl certain Turkey also has a Democratic form of government.
3. My argument in this thread is that we're winning and we're keeping Al Qeada's collective foot nailed to the floor. The can't win in Iraq and they can't afford to withdraw for fear of Democracy succeeding. Al Qeada has not won a single battle in Iraq. The tribal leaders are beginning to turn against them. Many areas of Iraq are stable and even prospering.
The direction, in my mind, is simple. Keep killing Al Qeada. What is the alternative? Bring all of our troops home and wait for the next attack?

 

[clown boy]

Well said.

 

[wanabebell]

I want to bring up a couple points not mentioned yet if so please correct me
Qwhere did sadam get most of his weapons
A the US. we sent him weapons so that he would control IRAN.
Q. how much money have we spent
A alot Billions of dollars
Q what could we have done with the money for ourselfs
A lets look at this Build a new and better school in realalistcally every city in america.
B fix health care
C. protect ourself better by having better military.
D theres alot more
I dont understand why people think we are the world police.
people wouldnt hate us as much if we minded our own buisness in stead of getting in everybody elses
and I dont understand how anybody can stand the Patriot Act
It is the single most horrific thing anybody has done to this country.
It violates everything this country was based on.
almost every dictator in history (including Stalin, Hitler, Bush, even Saddam)
has stated. "I need to take away your rights to protect your better."
The patriot act is this very statment!!!!

 

[1journeyman]

We absolutely used Saddam to control Iran. If we hadn't be would have had to be at war with Iran...
*We're spending more money on the education system in this country than we ever have before. Money isn't the solution.
*Nothing wrong with our health care system... That's why folks from around the world come here. I've seen hospitals in other countries... You can walk into any emergency room and get treated.
*Protect ourselves with a better military, yet not use them? What's the point?
Many of us feel we need to be the "world" police because we've studied history. Problems, dictators and tyrants don't go away. Appeasement and apathy lead to world wars.
Ahh, the Patriot Act. I asked this before and was answered with silence; What Exactly do you find offensive about it?