Why we are losing the war in Iraq...

[rbaldino]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
Anywho, that region will never have a democracy like we want it. Its the oldest region in the world and they have never had a democracy, the people don't want a democracy. That's part of the problem, they view democracy as a western philosophy and they want nothing to do with it. We want to be able to have our influence in that area, and simply we do not want to put our trust in a king or dictator.
Just out of curiousity, what makes you think you know what the people there want, think or need?
I doubt that a majority of Germans and Japanese in 1940 wanted us in their countries, but by 1945 we were. And now they are far better off for it.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by wanabebell
I want to bring up a couple points not mentioned yet if so please correct me
Qwhere did sadam get most of his weapons
A the US. we sent him weapons so that he would control IRAN.
Q. how much money have we spent
A alot Billions of dollars
Q what could we have done with the money for ourselfs
A lets look at this Build a new and better school in realalistcally every city in america.
B fix health care
C. protect ourself better by having better military.
D theres alot more
I dont understand why people think we are the world police.
people wouldnt hate us as much if we minded our own buisness in stead of getting in everybody elses
and I dont understand how anybody can stand the Patriot Act
It is the single most horrific thing anybody has done to this country.
It violates everything this country was based on.
almost every dictator in history (including Stalin, Hitler, Bush, even Saddam)
has stated. "I need to take away your rights to protect your better."
The patriot act is this very statment!!!!
Wow, you know, FDR interned all the japs, That is a violation of rights, Lincoln during the civil war, suspended HABEAS CORPUS. Literally the police could walk right in and arrest you hold you without cause.
Bush a dictator, you people are sooo diluted.

 

[wanabebell]

whats not offensive with the patriot act
the ability to arrest somebody WITHOUT the warrent
the ability to hold somebody INDEFFINETLY with no charge.
the ability to hold somebody and DENY them the right to a lawyer
the law was INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. Now its HOLD forever because we can
tapping phone lines is one that can be contested but I still think you should have a warrent.
under the Patriot act Bush theoretically could point a finger at any person and claim "you look like a terrorist, arrest him." And you can be held indeffinetly.(Now I will admit thats a lil far fetched but he has the ABILITY to if he indeed wanted too)
Why are we trying to teach the Arabs how to run their life you talk about history
they have been killing eachother for the last 1,000 years(no offence intended.) What makes you think we can change that

 

[wanabebell]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
Wow, you know, FDR interned all the japs, That is a violation of rights, Lincoln during the civil war, suspended HABEAS CORPUS. Literally the police could walk right in and arrest you hold you without cause.
Bush a dictator, you people are sooo diluted.

Now I didnt say nobody else has done stuff they shouldnt but the Patriot act is like what all the people have done wrong all together on crack.
and who is "you people" at least be specific with who your talking about

 

[reefreak29]

i really dont understand why so much energy is spent on arguing politics , its all in Gods hands and he will make the final decisions. and i gaurentee we wont be able to argue with him

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
We absolutely used Saddam to control Iran. If we hadn't be would have had to be at war with Iran...
***
Appeasement and apathy lead to world wars.
What I find so disturbing about the pro war argument, (including the above), is that it is based SOLELY on speculation, guesses and blind faith. But this point of view seems so sure of these predictions that they cannot even see the facts or the other side.
For instance, above we see a couple of wild conclusions that are argued in support of the war. Notice that there is no way to verify these claims but they are presented as absolute facts. Similarly, the argument has been made very confidently that, "If we weren't fighting Al Queda there than we'd be fighting them here." Again, silly argument because it is an UNEDUCATED guess based on nothing more than blind faith. The facts, which are being ignored, are that terrorist acts are being attempted and completed at an alarming rate. And I'll tell you, living near Dearborn, MI (where the largest population of muslims live outside of the middle east), there are weekly and sometimes daily arrests of terrorist funding and support here. The point is, they are here. To claim that 9-11 hasn't happened again, yet, and this is proof that we are defeating terrorism is naive.
And finally, CAN THE PRO WAR GUYS PLEASE STOP CRITICISING CLINTON AS SOME STRANGE WAY TO JUSTIFY BUSH'S ACTS. Arguing that Clinton made mistakes cannot negate from Bush's ignorance, arrogance and corruption.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by wanabebell
whats not offensive with the patriot act
..........
The fact that it has saved innocent lives during war times.

 

[1journeyman]

You're right Crimzy. All I can do is study history and base my conclusions on the mistakes we've made in the past.

What do you base your assumptions on?
I've asked thi question multiple times and have yet to get an answer; If not in Iraq, where would we be fightin Al Qeada?
For you Bush-haters, do you hate Kerry, Gore, Pres. and Senator Clinton, etc. for wanting to go to war with Iraq?
As a nation we've stood by time and time again while millions died. How many died in the trenches of Europe for years before we stepped in during WW1? We'd probably be speaking German today had Germany not foolishly attacked Russia and Japan not bombed Pearl. How many north Koreans have starved because we didn't finish the war? How many millions died in SE Asia because of the "peace" movement here in the US that forced our military to surrender Vietnam?
Hate President Bush if it helps you sleep at night, but remember we were hit seven times under Clinton. Remember 9-11 was planned under Clinton's presidency.
Al Qeada declared war, not the USA. Saddam declared war, not the USA. Saddam failed to comply with 17 UN Resolutions, not the USA.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
You're right Crimzy. All I can do is study history and base my conclusions on the mistakes we've made in the past.

.
It appears that your study of history and the "mistakes" are created specifically to support your argument here. Not to mention that you rely heavily on slippery slope arguments, (ie. we'd be speaking German if ..., we'd be attacked by terrorist every week if we weren't in Iraq..., so on and so forth).
I base my assumptions on what I can see and what I read, not imagining the most horrific future possible and arguing that this is reality if we don't fight.
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I've asked thi question multiple times and have yet to get an answer; If not in Iraq, where would we be fightin Al Qeada?.
No offense but this question is so remedial that I though it was supposed to be rhetorical. We'd be fighting Al Queda in the same places we are fighting them today, besides Iraq. If you want a list, we would and do fight Al Queda in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Dearborn Michigan, airports, sub-ways, malls, New York City, Washington D.C. and the millions of other places we are fighting Al Queda.
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
As a nation we've stood by time and time again while millions died. How many died in the trenches of Europe for years before we stepped in during WW1? We'd probably be speaking German today had Germany not foolishly attacked Russia and Japan not bombed Pearl. How many north Koreans have starved because we didn't finish the war? How many millions died in SE Asia because of the "peace" movement here in the US that forced our military to surrender Vietnam?
Again, self serving, impossible to corroborate, speculative argument. And let me guess, if I disagree with these conclusions, you'll say, "provide support for your position". Yet you can make these blanket statements and those of like thinking will just believe.
If we are winning the war on terror and are so much safer now, then how come we have that wonderful "terrorist color alert" system, which constantly reads "orange" or "red" meaning high danger of terrorist act (here!!). The answer is one of two possibilities: (1) We are in severe danger of a terrorist act here according to our leaders; or (2) This is just more propaganda created by the powers that be to drum up support for this war. Which do you think?

 

[wanabebell]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
The fact that it has saved innocent lives during war times.

How and when how bout you elaborate on this matter
whats your facts you have my attention

 

[stdreb27]

On a side note, we would all be speaking german bar one vote during the 1700's.
I wonder what phixer is doing, I haven't heard his libertarian arguments in a while.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
...
If we are winning the war on terror and are so much safer now, then how come we have that wonderful "terrorist color alert" system, ....
We are winning the war. That doesn't mean we're not in danger. In fact, again history shows that some of the most incredibly bloody battles are often fought when an enemy is almost defeated.
Crimzy, if you don't like my logic or assumptions explain why we were attacked seven times during the 90s and yet we seem to be stopping attacks time and again after 9-11?
Crimzy, I simply don't understand how you can ignore the fact that Al Qeada is in Iraq in large numbers. How does that not make us safer here? If I have 1 rattlesnake in my backyard that's dangerous. I may get bit. If I have 500 in my backyard I'm going to get bit.
My "blanket" statements about history do state fact... Millions have died as a result of our apathy and lack of action. Would Germany have been able to "cleanse" Europe and send millions to concentration camps if we would have reacted immediately to the German re-occupation of the Rhineland? Would Cambodia and Communist Vietnam been able to "purge" their populations had we remained and fought it out?
Crimzy, you and others keep avoiding the facts; This war came about because Saddam refused to allow inspectors to do their job.
Should we really cut and run and wait for the next building to fall?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by wanabebell
How and when how bout you elaborate on this matter
whats your facts you have my attention
Taken from NPR: "...The Justice Department says the Patriot Act facilitated its investigation of the "Lackawanna Six," a group of Yemeni-Americans who traveled to Afghanistan in 2001 to receive training at an al Qaeda-affiliated camp near Kandahar..."
There are many examples. I'll let you Google it for more.

 

[rbaldino]

The one thing I never hear from people who dislike Bush and the war is what they'd do to stop terrorism. It's naive to think that we wouldn't have to fight somewhere, and naive to think that everything can be settled with diplomacy. So, what should we do differently?

 

[crimzy]

Well, let me address your questions...
To your point that we were attacked 7 times in the 90's and have stopped the attacks since, let me offer you a list of terrorist attacks on Americans since 9/11:
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy was foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy was fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html
Additionally, to your point that Al Queda are primarily in Iraq so we are safer everywhere else, you are ignoring the fact that our invasion of Iraq has created thousands of additional Al Queda members. Granted I can't verify this supposition. However to answer your question, I think the rise in Anti-American sentiment and sympathy for the fundamentalists has caused groups such as Al Queda to grow so much in numbers that they are much more of a threat now than they were pre-Iraq invasion.

 

[wanabebell]

what terrorist attacks have we stopped??
and yes google is COMPLETLY legid
I really wonder how many websites I could design in an hour to say how good are patriot act is done for us
how can you stand for somthing that is against what are country was based on in the beginning
how is it right for one person to be able to arrest sombody without a warrent
or to say hes a terrorist because I say so

 

[crimzy]

I found some interesting information...
Here is a list of terrorist attacks outside of Iraq in the PAST 1 WEEK ONLY!!! So we are winning the war on terrorism, huh? In fact there have been over 8000 terrorist attacks since 9/11.
Date Country City Killed Injured Description
7/26/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamic terrorists attack two groups of teachers with roadside bombs and shoot a 44-year-old man to death.
7/26/07 Pakistan Tiarza 1 2 A Pakistani soldier is killed when Taliban militants fire a rocket into a base.
7/25/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 1 0 The Taliban shoot a Christian man to death.
7/25/07 Somalia Mogadishu 5 9 At least three civilians are killed when Islamists bomb an intersection.
7/25/07 India Doda 1 0 A civilian is abducted and murdered by the Mujahideen.
7/24/07 Pakistan Dattakhel 4 0 Islamic militants attack a security post, killing four members.
7/24/07 Somalia Mogadishu 3 0 A pregnant woman is among three civilians killed when Islamists toss a grenade into a market.
7/24/07 Pakistan Bannu 10 40 Muslim terrorists fire rockets into a village, killing ten civilians.
7/23/07 Somalia Mogadishu 7 0 A woman is among seven victims of an Islamic grenade attack in a commercial district.
7/23/07 Thailand Yala 1 1 A 46-year-old construction worker is shot to death by Muslim militants.
7/23/07 Algeria Boumerdes 1 8 An Algerian security personnel is killed in a bomb attack by Islamic fundamentalists.
7/23/07 Pakistan Kagai 2 0 Two men are abducted by al-Qaeda militants and executed by having their throats slit.
7/23/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 35-year-old is shot to death while fishing in a pond.
7/23/07 India Anantnag 1 1 Islamic militants ambush a security patrol, killing one member.
7/23/07 India Kishtwar 1 0 The Mujahideen kidnap and execute a 22-year-old man who was collecting firewood.
7/22/07 Lebanon Tanbourit 1 4 Shiites shoot Christian villagers who complained of harassment.
7/22/07 Pal. Auth. Gaza 3 0 Three sisters are brutally tortured and stabbed to death over suspicion of 'immoral' activities. Two are teenagers.
7/22/07 Afghanistan Kabul 1 0 The Taliban kill a German hostage, abducted four days earlier.
7/22/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 3 A civilian is killed when Muslim militants throw a grenade in a marketplace.
7/22/07 India Ramban 1 0 Hizb-ul-Mujahideen terrorists kidnap and kill a former member who wanted out.
7/21/07 Thailand Pattani 0 6 A 10-year-old boy and 13-year-old girl are among the casualites when Islamic radicals bomb a rice shop.
7/21/07 Somalia Mogadishu 2 3 Two civilians are murdered when a terrorist throws a grenade into a marketplace.
7/21/07 Ingushetia Karabulak 1 0 Muslim gunmen assassinate a government official in charge of 'ethnic relations'.
7/21/07 Algeria Crete 1 2 Islamic fundamentalists attack a group of soldiers, killing one.
7/20/07 Pakistan Miran Shah 4 6 Four innocents are killed by a suicide car bomber.
7/20/07 Afghanistan Helmand 2 2 Two civilians are killed by a car bomb.
7/20/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 3 0 Taliban militants murder three civilians with a roadside bomb.
7/20/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 Islamists gun down a drug store owner in his shop.
7/20/07 Nigeria Sokoto 5 0 A man is burned to death in his home is among five killed in sectarian clashes between Sunni and Shia.
7/20/07 India Rajouri 1 15 A civilian is shot to death outside his home and Islamic terrorists throw a grenade at Hindu pilgrims in a separate attack.
7/19/07 Afghanistan Fayzabad 1 25 Women and children are among the casualties of a suicide bombing.
7/19/07 Nigeria Sokoto 1 0 A Sunni mob beats a Shia to death.
7/19/07 Afghanistan Helmand 6 2 Religious extremists ambush a police car, killing a dozen Afghans at point-blank range.
7/19/07 Somalia Baruha 1 0 Islamists shoot a civilian in the head as he is holding a child.
7/19/07 Pakistan Kohat 18 19 Fedayeen suicide bombers hit a mosque inside an army base, blasting eighteen people to death.
7/19/07 Somalia Mogadishu 6 3 Children playing soccer are hit by mortars fired by Islamists. Six are killed and three injured.
7/19/07 Chechnya Assinovskaya 2 3 Two policemen are killed when Mujahideen attack their post.
7/19/07 Pakistan Hub 30 28 Thirty people are slaughtered when Sunni bombers target Chinese engineers along a road.
7/19/07 Pakistan Hangu 8 22 At least eight are killed when suicide bombers ram their vehicle into a police training facility.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Crimzy, you and others keep avoiding the facts; This war came about because Saddam refused to allow inspectors to do their job.
This is not what Bush told the American public about this war. He was selling this "War on Terror" before there was any Al Queda in Iraq.

 

[autofreak44]

Originally Posted by crimzy
This is not what Bush told the American public about this war. He was selling this "War on Terror" before there was any Al Queda in Iraq.
before it was WMD's and now its terrorists. both are real threats so it doesnt matter weather al queda was their first or not

 

[wanabebell]

Bush had his mind made up before the inspectors were up
You say we are dodging questions
HOW do you feel with your rights being taken away???
You havent answered that have just dodged with another excuse