Will a water change suffice??

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2997896
Just between you and me the amount of live rock you have or do not have has nothing to do with your spike in ammonia or nitrites
Joe, you should write an article explaining the nitrogen cycle and bacterial colonies. Detail the role that bacteria plays in the cycle and list variables that affect the end results, such as dosing and macroalgaes.
That way we could link to a SWF *sticky* thread, rather than sending someone to google with a "phrase" to enter.
I have a hunch that you just like dangling the info in front of people to see if they'll bite.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2998125
Joe, you should write an article explaining the nitrogen cycle and bacterial colonies. Detail the role that bacteria plays in the cycle and list variables that affect the end results, such as dosing and macroalgaes.
That way we could link to a SWF *sticky* thread, rather than sending someone to google with a "phrase" to enter.
I have a hunch that you just like dangling the info in front of people to see if they'll bite.

My good friend you are absolutely right (I guess I am getting old and much to obvious).
My thoughts
Once we have established a continuing cycle of nitrification and denitrification with in our tanks the bacteria colonies involved expand and diminish according to the amount of organic breakdown involved. We reach a state of equilibrium this state is not predicated on the amount of live rock in our tanks in fact we do not need any live rock to propitiate the nitrogen cycle.
If one sees a spike in their ammonia or nitrates it means that the balance of organic brake down and nitrification is disrupted. Live rock does not harbor colonies of nitrifying bacteria in a state of readiness to be called upon if needed to handle an increase in bio-load (a dead fish est.).
This is the extremely short version of my feelings on the subject but I hope it opens the door to more conversation, which I will most certainly be a part of.

 

[woody189]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2998328
My good friend you are absolutely right (I guess I am getting old and much to obvious).
My thoughts
Once we have established a continuing cycle of nitrification and denitrification with in our tanks the bacteria colonies involved expand and diminish according to the amount of organic breakdown involved. We reach a state of equilibrium this state is not predicated on the amount of live rock in our tanks in fact we do not need any live rock to propitiate the nitrogen cycle.
If one sees a spike in their ammonia or nitrates it means that the balance of organic brake down and nitrification is disrupted. Live rock does not harbor colonies of nitrifying bacteria in a state of readiness to be called upon if needed to handle an increase in bio-load (a dead fish est.).
This is the extremely short version of my feelings on the subject but I hope it opens the door to more conversation, which I will most certainly be a part of.
Got it. I had a thread where a fish died and then my levels went up, and I was told, by someone who I thought of as being knowledgable, that the chances of a single fish causing the levels to rise are unlikely due to the amount of LR I had in the tank.
Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry Ivy if I misled you.

 

[spanko]

Originally Posted by woody189
http:///forum/post/2998392
Got it. I had a thread where a fish died and then my levels went up, and I was told, by someone who I thought of as being knowledgable, that the chances of a single fish causing the levels to rise are unlikely due to the amount of LR I had in the tank.
Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry Ivy if I misled you.
Beware of blanket statements like this. There are too many variables to really nail down what will occur in the case of a fish dying in your tank. I'll just through out here that if your total water volume is able to dilute the ammonia being put into the system by a dying fish - invert - or decaying food source you may not even see a spike before, as Joe has stated, the nitrifying bacteria colony grows enough to catch it, your skimmer removes the protein before it breaks down, or you do a water change thereby diluting it. Just my $0.02.

 

[woody189]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2998412
Beware of blanket statements like this. There are too many variables to really nail down what will occur in the case of a fish dying in your tank. I'll just through out here that if your total water volume is able to dilute the ammonia being put into the system by a dying fish - invert - or decaying food source you may not even see a spike before, as Joe has stated, the nitrifying bacteria colony grows enough to catch it, your skimmer removes the protein before it breaks down, or you do a water change thereby diluting it. Just my $0.02.
I figured that if you have more LR, that it would be much easier for the bacteria to colonize to "catch up" with the increase in ammonia.
I thought that: let's say I had 10 lbs of LR, there's not much surface area so it would take 3 days (made up time) for the bacteria to colonize enough to get rid of the ammonia.
But if I had 45 lbs it would take 1 day because since there is more area, there is more space for the bacteria to grow, and I figured it would grow quicker.
IDK if that's how it works, and IDK too much about the nitrogen cycle, just the basics. But that's how I saw it.
I just don't really understand the 1-1.5 lbs LR per gallon rule. Is that just enough to maintain equilibrium and compensate for a slight rise in ammonia?

 

[spanko]

Good question for Joe, that being will a larger base colony of bacteria deal with the need to increase faster than a smaller base colony?????
Riddle me that BatJoe!!!!!

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2998433
Good question for Joe, that being will a larger base colony of bacteria deal with the need to increase faster than a smaller base colony?????
Riddle me that BatJoe!!!!!
“I live to eat” as apposed to my nitrifying bacteria friends which eat to live which means?
Woody with all due respect it seems that you feel that live rock is the only platform for nitrification to take place. This is just not so. If you look at bio balls for instance you see they are a multi faceted media in a small package if using them your colonization will increase here. Your live rock while giving you more surfaces then the area they cover on your substraight may not be the area of choice for new colonies to establish. You will more then likely get this new establishment in areas that come into contact with the NEW nutrient rich water (mechanical media being the most prominent.) BUT remember that you already have colonization in place no matter how much live rock you already have in your tank these colonies may and in my opinion will expand to deal with the new larger bio load so a new independent area of colonization should not be needed

 

[woody189]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2998587
“I live to eat” as apposed to my nitrifying bacteria friends which eat to live which means?
Woody with all due respect it seems that you feel that live rock is the only platform for nitrification to take place. This is just not so. If you look at bio balls for instance you see they are a multi faceted media in a small package if using them your colonization will increase here. Your live rock while giving you more surfaces then the area they cover on your substraight may not be the area of choice for new colonies to establish. You will more then likely get this new establishment in areas that come into contact with the NEW nutrient rich water (mechanical media being the most prominent.) BUT remember that you already have colonization in place no matter how much live rock you already have in your tank these colonies may and in my opinion will expand to deal with the new larger bio load so a new independent area of colonization should not be needed
I understand that LR isn't the only place bacteria can colonize, but wouldn't having more LR increase the speed in which it colonizes if it needed to? Then of course, it would die off once the source of the added bioload is gone (like you take the dead fish out).

 

[locoyo386]

Originally Posted by woody189
http:///forum/post/2998676
I understand that LR isn't the only place bacteria can colonize, but wouldn't having more LR increase the speed in which it colonizes if it needed to? Then of course, it would die off once the source of the added bioload is gone (like you take the dead fish out).
Bacterial Colony expand exponetially and it is dependent soley on nutrient. The more nutrient you have the more bacteria there will be. The areas where they live do not affect their growth speed. Just because there is more land on earth it does not mean we will grow faster. On the other hand the more land in conbination with more food means there will be more people.
This is why when you have more ammonia than the bacteria can convert, you will have a apike. Other wise you would never have a spike as long as there would be enough surface area avaible to colonize. To make it short, no, the more surface area you does not mean the bacteria will grow faster.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by locoyo386
http:///forum/post/2998698
Bacterial Colony expand exponetially and it is dependent soley on nutrient. The more nutrient you have the more bacteria there will be. The areas where they live do not affect their growth speed. Just because there is more land on earth it does not mean we will grow faster. On the other hand the more land in conbination with more food means there will be more people.
This is why when you have more ammonia than the bacteria can convert, you will have a apike. Other wise you would never have a spike as long as there would be enough surface area avaible to colonize. To make it short, no, the more surface area you does not mean the bacteria will grow faster.
Exactly

 

[ivycharlaine]

wow this got kind of deep lol. anyway, one of my clowns died all of a sudden. well my water parameters are fine and all i have left is one clown and one serpent star. this is just so frustrating. oh yea and my cuc which are snails and blue legged hermits.

 

[vontill]

are you checking only your ammonia, trites, and trates? or have you checked you alk, magnesium, calcium, ph, phosphates, and iodine?

 

[socal57che]

While we are at it...what is your SG/salinity?
Ok, I thought you guys would mention it, but back to LR...
Your LR will aid in everyday breakdown of bioload created by livestock and feeding. The difference here is that we have an increase in load on the system due to a death in the tank. The colonies grow to meet the demand placed on them. (or 'nutrients fed to them' might be a better way to word it)
We don't want people getting the idea that LR has no real benefit. LR also improves overall health of fish by providing a natural habitat with hiding places and all the other organisms that LR brings to the tank. Don't let us deter you from having plenty of LR...just realize how the nitrogen cycle works so you understand what is going on inside the tank. Once the waste reaches the nitrate stage it needs to be physically removed. This basically translates to water changes and/or export by algae cultivation. (I did not forget carbon dosing and skimming, just didn't think it belonged in the new hobbyist forum)

 

[don trinko]

Shrimp are very sensative to ammonia. for shrimp it should be = 0.
There are chemicals that will make the ammonia harmless. ( amaquel+ and others) It is a good idea to keep some around for times like this. It will still read ammonia but it is chemicaly bound and the bacteria will ultimatly eat it. It will not harm the fish.
There are test kits that will read the free ammonia. ( the dangerous kind) Seachem is one but there are others. Most tests read total ammonia. (free + bound) Don T.

 

[florida joe]

Once the waste reaches the nitrate stage it needs to be physically removed.
Unless of course we remove the nitrates via anaerobic bacteria my good friend. which is where we get our greatest benifit from LR IMO

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2999579
Unless of course we remove the nitrates via anaerobic bacteria my good friend. which is where we get our greatest benifit from LR IMO

Indeed.
This will be sufficient in a low bioload/low feed aquarium. The issue is that most bioload exceeds the capability of naturally occuring denitrifying microbes. This is why we see people trying to increase these colonies with carbon dosing such as sugar, vinegar, alcohol and sulfur.
Skimming is also a good example. By simply skimming, we remove waste before it gets broken down, effectively reducing the need for larger bacterial colonies. If rock alone was enough, skimmers would not sell very well.
I have 2 fish and a handful of crabs and snails in a 72g tank. The rest of my waste contributing biota consists of detritovores and filter feeders for the most part. I have a relatively low bioload and my LR is able to house enough anaerobic bacteria to keep nitrates (pretty well) in check. I decided to cultivate chaetomorpha to further help remove nitrates in conjunction with my regular water change regimen.
In nearly all marine aquariums, nitrate levels continue to rise to a point requiring removal by physical means. This is especially true after a death when there is a rise in ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. The colony needs to grow in order to handle the new load created by the decomposing specimen. I might add that this is a good reason to remove dead livestock.
This is the kind of discussion I will be linking to for future use.

 

[ivycharlaine]

Originally Posted by vontill
http:///forum/post/2999368
are you checking only your ammonia, trites, and trates? or have you checked you alk, magnesium, calcium, ph, phosphates, and iodine?
Yeah i've only checked my ammonia, Ph, Nitrites, Nitrates and SG. My Salinity is 1.022. Do I need to check the other things even though I don't have any corals and it is a FOWLR??

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by ivycharlaine
http:///forum/post/2999969
Yeah i've only checked my ammonia, Ph, Nitrites, Nitrates and SG. My Salinity is 1.022. Do I need to check the other things even though I don't have any corals and it is a FOWLR??
You should check for alk, phosphates, and calcium too.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by ivycharlaine
http:///forum/post/2999969
Yeah i've only checked my ammonia, Ph, Nitrites, Nitrates and SG. My Salinity is 1.022. Do I need to check the other things even though I don't have any corals and it is a FOWLR??
Do you use air freshener aerosols?
Burn lots of candles?
Is there anybody that could have inadvertently contaminated the water?
Have you used insecticides/pesticides in your home?
What livestock have you lost in the 6 months your tank has been up? (any and all losses)
What is your source of water for top off and salt mix?

 

[ivycharlaine]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/3000063
Do you use air freshener aerosols?
Burn lots of candles?
Is there anybody that could have inadvertently contaminated the water?
Have you used insecticides/pesticides in your home?
What livestock have you lost in the 6 months your tank has been up? (any and all losses)
What is your source of water for top off and salt mix?
No air freshners or candles in that room. I am the only one who touches the aquarium, i don't have kids, i don't use pesticides and i use tap water for my water top off and prepackaged salt mix.
In the last 6 months I've lost a foxface, pseudo, diamond goby and a clown. and actually they all died within the last month.