You dont have to cycle a tank

[lion_crazz]

I could not have said it better here.
Dave, yes there are ich eggs on live rock. That is why I always QT new live rock, or allow it to be somewhere fishless for 6 weeks for all of those ich eggs to die from being without a host.

 

[lion_crazz]

Originally Posted by dmjordan
i don't like to take unecessary risks when it comes to the health, stability and well being of my tank. this hobby takes patience and there is no need or reason to rush things. a tank that has cycled properly will be a better tank IMO. many people waste alot of time and money buying and looking for something that is going to give them instant gratification. if you are looking to have a quick "fix" that is fine but there are alot of people who come here to get good sound advice on how to set up and have a succesful tank. trying to sell newcomers on an idea that may or may not work will only discourage people from this hobby. it this method works for you than great keep it up....but i think it is a much safer and more succesful way for people to cycle their tank with a raw shrimp or uncured live rock. this will also get people used to doing tests on their tanks and learning what to look for and how to fix it. JMO
I could not have said it better here.
Dave, yes there are ich eggs on live rock. That is why I always QT new live rock, or allow it to be somewhere fishless for 6 weeks for all of those ich eggs to die from being without a host.

 

[robn]

I cycle my tanks with 26 percent ammonia, no fish. Even though some fish are tough enough to handle a cycle, I don't like using them....the damage is the same no matter if you use a moorish idol or a damsel, the only difference is the damsel may withstand it and the idol probably won't.
You can get the ammonia from a cleaning company....don't use the one you buy in the grocery store. It's not "pure" enough and has surficants.....if you shake it and it foams, don't use it......
You can cycle a tank quickly with no fish....the only downside is the huge amount of nitrates you will have at the end of the cycle, but, you're going to have that anyway.

 

[murph]

There is no such thing as an instant cycle even when using established rock, media and substrate.
I have cycled many tanks with livestock both FW and SW and IMO this method provides for a more stable environment for the addition of the first few intended livestock on the list. In the case of using established rock and substrate there are most certainly ways to keep the initial and low ammonia spike form harming fish and LR but the process involves vary close monitoring of the system.
The new hobbyist can have the best of both worlds. Ghost feeding the tank for a fish-less cycle and then the addition of those inexpensive damsels for another few months or more.
Yes I know the damsels will have to be removed but this method will accomplish a few things. If your like most new hobbyist you will change your mind about your aquascapeing and these changes can be made when you have to move rock to catch the damsels. You will also most likely change your mind a few times about your livestock list. The few months the damsels have the tank will give you plenty of time to hem and haw about this list.
By the time the first few fish on the intended livestock list are purchased they will have a far more stable tank to be introduced to. If any mistakes have been made they will most likely become apparent in the first few months the tank is set up and while unfortunate for the damsels the financial hit for the hobbyist is not to large. Expensive fish losses in a new tank can put people off the hobby before they ever give themselves a chance.

 

[teen]

Originally Posted by xDave
Theres also ich eggs in live rock.
thats part of the reason your not supposed to add fish to a new tank for at least a month.

 

[teen]

Originally Posted by xDave
Times change, have nitrosomas and nitrosonomas evolved since I started ?
no, they themselves havent changed, but im sure we know more about them now then we did 25 years ago.

 

[maxsmart]

A better solution might be to accept some water from an established tank, one you trust the owner that it has been disease-free: a friend's tank, another of your own, etc.
I am moving soon, and I plan to take at least 80% of my water with me. I plan to use my tank's water (via a 10% water change) to start a 10gal hospital tank at my new apartment, let that settle a few days, then transfer the fish to the hospital tank, then move the tank, water, and remaining liverock/sand. I'll let that settle for a few days before moving the fish back. I plan to transport the water in 20gal rubbermaid bins, putting liverock and sand in these as well. I know I cannot carry 20gal of water, so I plan to use buckets to transfer the water from tank to bins (already in the car).
What do you think?

Sorry if it seems a bit off-topic, but really we are in the same boat - setting up a new tank quickly is the same challenge as moving an existing tank.

 

[alyssia]

Originally Posted by MaxSmart
A better solution might be to accept some water from an established tank, one you trust the owner that it has been disease-free: a friend's tank, another of your own, etc.
I am moving soon, and I plan to take at least 80% of my water with me. I plan to use my tank's water (via a 10% water change) to start a 10gal hospital tank at my new apartment, let that settle a few days, then transfer the fish to the hospital tank, then move the tank, water, and remaining liverock/sand. I'll let that settle for a few days before moving the fish back. I plan to transport the water in 20gal rubbermaid bins, putting liverock and sand in these as well. I know I cannot carry 20gal of water, so I plan to use buckets to transfer the water from tank to bins (already in the car).
What do you think?

Sorry if it seems a bit off-topic, but really we are in the same boat - setting up a new tank quickly is the same challenge as moving an existing tank.

Water won't do anything. The beneficial bacteria that "cycles" the tank is in the filter, rock, sand, etc., not the water.

 

[beth]

Lets simplify this. Buy a few pieces of LR, even if you are planning on setting up a FO. LR and LS are the best seeds for new tank. Nothing else is needed to kick start a new tank.

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by Murph
There is no such thing as an instant cycle even when using established rock, media and substrate.
no but theres a such thing as no cycle. using fully cured and established substrate, LR and media to start a new tank is no different than doing a transfer from one tank to another. as long as the bioload/demand doesn't exceed the bio processing capacity of what established stuff you've used and you dont kill anything during the tranfer/tranport process there shouldn't be a cycle.
Now would I trust the LR, substrate and God forbid the media from a LPS, hell to the naw but if you have a good source.....

 

[murph]

Originally Posted by Stanlalee
no but theres a such thing as no cycle. using fully cured and established substrate, LR and media to start a new tank is no different than doing a transfer from one tank to another. as long as the bioload/demand doesn't exceed the bio processing capacity of what established stuff you've used and you dont kill anything during the tranfer/tranport process there shouldn't be a cycle.
Now would I trust the LR, substrate and God forbid the media from a LPS, hell to the naw but if you have a good source.....
I tend to agree stan and would take it a step further in that if it were possible to find a pound or more per gallon of established rock from a system that is being torn down the rock alone would probably head off any cycle provided some common sense was used introducing stock.
Here again though careful monitoring of the system would be crucial and the possibility of it getting away from you faster than you can react is most definitely there. I don't think I would trust it with any high dollar specimens. I also would not suggest it for the new hobbyist.

 

[jmick]

If you are not patient enough to wait for you tank to cycle and need a short cut then this probably isn't the best hobby for ya....

 

[alyssia]

Originally Posted by Jmick
If you are not patient enough to wait for you tank to cycle and need a short cut then this probably isn't the best hobby for ya....

I agree.

 

[lion_crazz]

I agree with this also.
Alyssia made an excellent point as well with the water. Water will not transfer biological bacteria at all.

 

[cgrant]

I wouldnt put that in my tank, speaking from personal experience I got about 40 lbs of LR from aquascapes in hobart (nw indiana) and rinsed the LR in a bucket of saltwater before putting it in my display tank. Welll...big mistake, I now have an outbreak of ich on my hippo tangs and i know it came from the lr as i have not added anything else before or after the last lr addition, needless to say I wont be buying anything from aquascapes again, its's not much better than a ***** or petsmart.
I am not sure about bacteria but the LR did put a parasite in my tank.
Now everything goes into my old tank for 6 weeks before entering my display tank.
lessons learned

 

[cgrant]

Just as a fyi...I just called my wife (nurse) and she asked one of the doctors, he did say that bacteria is definately transferable through water!
he also said water contamination serves as a source of bacteria, viruses, and parasites that can cause gastrointestinal problems or transmit contagious diseases to pretty much any living thing through water.
so i guess the water would have to be contaminated by bacteria, virus, etc 1st but can also pass it on.

 

[oreo12]

Originally Posted by teen
from this webite

So you don't buy live rock from your lfs? You would rather buy offline where you have no clue to how it is taken care of befor you get it. Maybe it came from the airport then was baged and shipped straight to you. How would you know? I am not saying I would try this method but it is one way to get a start on the cycle helping to seed a tank like buying live sand from someone online to seed a sand bed same thing. I buy corals, fish and live rock from my lfs. I do belive 99% of the folks on here do as well. I would rather see what I am geting for my $ I work to hard for it to take a chance on what someone will ship me. Good luck to ya.
Sounds like a plan that can help seed a system to me thanks for sharing your Idea

 

[hatessushi]

Like I stated in the second post of this thread. I still stand by that. The only way I would put anything from the LFS into my tank regarding water is if it was sterilzed first so maybe with a UV in my system I would, but that would also mean getting rid of the good things.

 

[alyssia]

Originally Posted by CGRANT
Just as a fyi...I just called my wife (nurse) and she asked one of the doctors, he did say that bacteria is definately transferable through water!
he also said water contamination serves as a source of bacteria, viruses, and parasites that can cause gastrointestinal problems or transmit contagious diseases to pretty much any living thing through water.
so i guess the water would have to be contaminated by bacteria, virus, etc 1st but can also pass it on.

Maybe bacteria that can make people sick, but not the beneficial bacteria that cycles your tank. If that worked than no one would have to cycle a tank, all you would have to do is get someone elses tank water.

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by alyssia
Maybe bacteria that can make people sick, but not the beneficial bacteria that cycles your tank. If that worked than no one would have to cycle a tank, all you would have to do is get someone elses tank water.
theres not enough to filter anything but of course there is a insignificant amount that eventually once ends up on a hard surface can muliply. People always argue when I tell people to use all new water when transferring because the old water isn't doing anything significant in terms of breaking down ammonia. All it is doing is adding nitrates and what ever else byproducts are in your old water. Once you take a fish out the tank and bag it for any amount of time you have to reacclimate it again anyway because the bag waters pH and such will quickly change and be different from the other tank water you saved. people argue you want the parameters of the water to stay the same but that doesn't happen so you might as well use fresh nitrate, phophate, everything else free water. As long as the substrate and LR remain submerged in saltwater with perhaps a little aeration during the transfer you have left your filter in tact. toss the old water. I see absolutely no point in keeping 10, 20, 50 or 80% of the old water.
another interesting thing I read by Eric B on that other famous message board is that even after liverock has cured and the tank has successfully cycled it is still in no way suitable for your prized fish. This doesn't apply to LR and substrate taken from well established tanks but those who purchase fresh/supplier shipped liverock. He explained that even though ammonia is being successfully processed early on many things in and on the liverock are still dying. its just that the biofiltration has build up enough to successfully process it. So while our ammonia, nitrite and even perhaps nitrate and phospate are reading favorably (the ammonia cycle is working) all kinds of other toxins/chemicals/antibiotics are being released by these dying things that we dont test for but are still harmful to fish. I know just about everyone of us has had a fish drop dead for no appearent good reason and everything we test for reads perfectly. This could very well be the case. He went on to say a tank is not established until all these things that are going to die actually finish dying off and instead of things dying things start growing from/in the rock. I have to say that alot of my liverock went for months and month with not much but perhaps some pods growing but not until 8months plus down the road did a zillion sticks from worms building, new creatures and alot of stuff start showing up in abundance. and alot of stuff that was there like the zillion small red and orange colored feather dusters have long perished to never return. Its not until these swings have basically stablized that we should consider a tank established and perhaps then put the high dollar fish in.
Sorry for the long winded text. perhaps I should have cut and paste.