You dont have to cycle a tank

[cgrant]

Originally Posted by alyssia
Maybe bacteria that can make people sick, but not the beneficial bacteria that cycles your tank. If that worked than no one would have to cycle a tank, all you would have to do is get someone elses tank water.
just asked my wife and she explained that any type of bacteria can be in water, the bacteria, parasite, etc is enough enough to make a fish or somone sick but not enough to cycle a tank.
basically takes a much larger amount to cycle a tank than to get a fish sick.
thats how my fish got ich, i didnt put any of the tank water from the lfs and even rinsed the lr off in old tank water before putting it in the display.
Using water, lr, etc from a established tank will help the tank cycle faster, my 210 cycled in 2 1/2 weeks.

 

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by alyssia
Maybe bacteria that can make people sick, but not the beneficial bacteria that cycles your tank. If that worked than no one would have to cycle a tank, all you would have to do is get someone elses tank water.
Like Alyssia, I am under the impression that the beneficial bacteria that the cycle creates adhere to surfaces (such as LR), and are not free floating.
I have heard and practice this to a degree, that the filter media should be cleaned for water flow, however the canister or receptacle itself houses beneficial bacteria ON its walls. I rinse, but I will never scrub my canister. It makes sense to me.
:thinking:

 

[cgrant]

any type of bacteria, parasite, etc will adhere to a surface like rock, bio-balls, etc. more than free floating in water, not sure how this came into question?
Just stating that bacteria good and bad can be transmitted through water but not enough good bacteria to cycle a tank.
I took about 5 handfulls of bioballs from my old tank, some sand, and a couple of pieces of LR and my 210 cycled in 2 1/2 weeks, when i 1st started my 55 it took 6 weeks for the tank to cycle, i am convinced that the bacteria that was on the bioballs, sand and rock helped speed up the cycle on the 210.
All I am saying is any type of bacteria can be in water good or bad.

 

[bakaduin]

Im going to have to agree with Dave here. I've personally cycled a tank in a day with this method and with no adverse effects. If you have a relationship with your fish store and trust them it works. If you dont, then why even buy fish/LR from them.

 

[cgrant]

I would agree with that, unfortunately like most people i learned the hard way.
I purchased lr from a lfs and had a ich breakout, lessons learned!
If Dave knows this lfs is a reputable business then that is up to Dave.
Unfortunately the lfs' in my area have much to be desired with the exception of exotic aquatics in highland indiana, that is now the only place i purchase from and make sure to research, research, reasearch. so i guess the lfs' in my area have left a negative impression burned into my mind and cant say i will 100% trust a lfs any time soon.

 

[phishface]

Whats the rush? IMO you should take your time and wait the old fashioned way. Maybe because I couldnt afford everything I needed and had to save for years to aquire everything. Over feed a handful of damsels for a few months. As with most things in life, they get better with age. But of course IMO. :happyfish

 

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by phishface
Whats the rush? IMO you should take your time and wait the old fashioned way. Maybe because I couldnt afford everything I needed and had to save for years to aquire everything. Over feed a handful of damsels for a few months. As with most things in life, they get better with age. But of course IMO. :happyfish
Love the name phishface (

) but oh, HH, no "happy fish" is overfed and cycled!

 

[hot883]

Has anyone else noticed that the thread author has not been on here in 26 posts? That might be because the theory of no cycle was blown out of the water.

I do not trust ANY LFS water just for the fact that their turn over rate is usually very high and new arrivals are known to be stressed out and cause bad bacteria's and parasites in the waters.

 

[mikeyjer]

Originally Posted by CGRANT
I would agree with that, unfortunately like most people i learned the hard way.
I purchased lr from a lfs and had a ich breakout, lessons learned!
If Dave knows this lfs is a reputable business then that is up to Dave.
Unfortunately the lfs' in my area have much to be desired with the exception of exotic aquatics in highland indiana, that is now the only place i purchase from and make sure to research, research, reasearch. so i guess the lfs' in my area have left a negative impression burned into my mind and cant say i will 100% trust a lfs any time soon.
It depends where the LR was located in the store, was it in rock only tank or was it with fish? Depending on the amount of time those rocks been in their holding tank, if it's longer then one month period, you can not get ich from that source. You can't always blame the LFS just because you purchsed rock from them and cause your fish to have ich. Maybe the ich was already present within your tank, but your fish weren't showing any signs because they're healthy enough to fight it off. But once, depending on how much LR you placed within your tank and if it's cured or not, that can play the row of how your fish gotten sick in the first place.
I personally have cycled my 90g tank in a week. I did numerous things to the new tank when it was setup. I placed aragonite sand and lace rock for the bottom and placed over 100 lbs worth of cured live rock within. I did a water change in my existing reef tank and used all that dirty water and dumped it right in my new tank, along with cleaning out my canister filter and rinsing all the media with the same water being dumped into the new tank. And numerous other stuffs....To my surprise, it cycled quite fast.... :happyfish

 

[cgrant]

Originally Posted by Mikeyjer
It depends where the LR was located in the store, was it in rock only tank or was it with fish? Depending on the amount of time those rocks been in their holding tank, if it's longer then one month period, you can not get ich from that source. You can't always blame the LFS just because you purchsed rock from them and cause your fish to have ich. Maybe the ich was already present within your tank, but your fish weren't showing any signs because they're healthy enough to fight it off. But once, depending on how much LR you placed within your tank and if it's cured or not, that can play the row of how your fish gotten sick in the first place.
I personally have cycled my 90g tank in a week. I did numerous things to the new tank when it was setup. I placed aragonite sand and lace rock for the bottom and placed over 100 lbs worth of cured live rock within. I did a water change in my existing reef tank and used all that dirty water and dumped it right in my new tank, along with cleaning out my canister filter and rinsing all the media with the same water being dumped into the new tank. And numerous other stuffs....To my surprise, it cycled quite fast.... :happyfish
Oh...I can blame them! they did have fish in the tank and i didnt notice one of the fish had ich until i was at the store a couple of days later, at that point too late! I told them about it and they said not to worry about it, well now my hippo's have ich. LR was cured.
I think i will let this one go now!

 

[xdave]

I decided to quit addressing these posts when my abilities as a father were attacked. I defended myself as a good parent snd that was going to be my last words.
Beside that, I havent responded because none of you have actually tried this. You are theorizing that it wont work, and I have actually done it repeatedly on a massive industrial scale that most of you can't even fathom. Does it matter what you think or imagine won'tl work if I've alreay done it. None of you have proven me wrong, you've just said I'm wrong without proving it using any remotely scientific method.
Heres how I started using this method. I was picking out some butterflies for the curator of the public aquarium. He asked about my 125 and I told him it was set up and to temp but I wasn't looking forward to cycling it. He said "just use the used Biochem beads out of the coral system and your done, what do you think is the difference between you cycling the media at home and it having alreay been cycled here? Just make sure you put in the first livestock within 48 hours". I've done it this way ever since. Kinda funny but the only person that here agrees with me has actually done it and the people that don't haven't. Does anyone see the logic here?
To answer some specific comments, since appearantly it's now expected of me;
Yes you, the hobbyist/retailer do know more than you did 20 years ago. Because we the indutry have theorized, tested, and perfected the methods that get passed down to you. Do zoos go to lfs to find out how to care for fish? You think a manufacturer is going to invent something then take it to a store and say sell these and let me know if it kills everybody's fish? All that fancy equipment you can buy nowdays, who do you think tested that and made the alterations to it before you had even heard of it? The hobbyist magazines don't even get told about new stuff untill it's already benn tested, sometimes for many years. Where does this get tested?
Some of you have said just use live rock. You are proving my point for me. You are using the LR as the filter media ( as opposed to what I use as the main media) which already contains the bacteria. It's the same thing accept that what I use as filter media has enough bacteria in it to actually use immediately.
I never put uncured LR in my tank. You know how I cycle, why would I want to skank my tank.
If you can't trust your lfs, you can't trust them. To go back to my helpful self for a second, heres if you can trust them. If LR is on a system with no fish there will be no fish parasites after 14 days of no new additions, the same can be said for the filter media and water in that system. If this is not the case you can stiil use my method, you just need to change your stocking sequence. Use their media (enough to handle your setup) and add anything but fish first. Wait at least 2 weeks before adding fish. The best thing to always do is quarentine your fish for at least 2 weeks anyway. I start my tank stocking with the first batch of fish and no invert so basically my main tank is my qt for that first batch. If ich breaks out I can just treat them in there since there are no inverts yet.
Every aquarium book I have says that using old water is not effective. even though it does contain the proper bacteria the organism per volume ratio isn't even close.
If anyone really has the need to prove me wrong then prove it in a scientific manner.
*Set up 2 identical tanks (never consider evidence without a control group)
*Use any type filter that is recomended for that size tank.
*Place the ammount of precycled used filter media in the filter that is recommended for that tank size. This is where the error factor can sneak in. If the source system has more than the recomended ammount for their livestock load it will effect the amount of bacteria per media volume ratio. This is usually not the case for a LFS. I said usually. The dirtier it is the better.
*Use the same ammount of new media in the other tanks filter.
*Since you should only add about 25% of your total livestock at a time, do so in both tanks.
*Test water in the tanks.
If you fail to do any of the following, you simply not setting up a tank correctly
When you get the used media it must be treated and transported as if it were livestock. In a bag with 25% water, 75% air.
The tank must have unclorinated water.
It must be at the proper temp.
Livestock must be added within 48 hours.
The statement " You are wrong because I think you are "is absurd

 

[poniegirl]

I apologize for the comment about children feeding fish. It was rude and out of place. Out of character, too, I am sorry.
My 20 long has been set up since Sunday night. I used water from my 55 and also LR that has been in my tank for a year minimum, though probably only 10 pounds.
15 minutes ago, ammonia is at .75.
Should I have not expected a cycle? I don't think it can really be avoided, Dave.

 

[xdave]

apology accepted.
Is the rock your only filter media in the 55? Like I said, if what is holding the bateria in your 55 is above what would be nessasary then it would be spread too thin for it to work. i'm not saying that there's such a thing as too much filtration, just that what you transfer would have to be proportion. Did you transfer 36% of the exposed surface area of live rock to the 20? Most LR in too dense and non pourous to have nitrosomas inside of it, you really have to judge its filtering capabilities by it's exposed surface area.
Example: if you have enough filter floss in a HOB on a 100 to filter 200 gallons, you still need to transfer half of it to a 50.

 

[whitey_028]

I had water, rock,sand, and fish from my 185 an kick started my nano cube with no cycle at all. I beleive it was the easiest and fastest setup ive ever tried to do. It was flawless. My stuff went from one tank straight into the other.

 

[xdave]

Cool.
You know I was thinking about things people could do, especially beginners, that would make this method fail.
If the lfs' system is 1000 gallons, you would need 5% of the filter media to do a 55. OK that's just math, but, if the system in question has LR, then what? The bacteria is spread between the surface area of the rock and the media in the filter system. you'd need 5% of that total?! How you gonna measure that, sonar?
*Heres a litte revision to help people understand the details.
You want a % of the bacteria, not a % of the media.
If the donor filter has 1000 gallons and your setting up a 20, you need 2% of the total filter medium in the 1000 gallon donor system regarless of how much media that may be.
If its too much, remove it a little at a time, around 10% a week will be slow enough.
*Avoid the LR system, impossible to calculate what you would need.
*First choice would be an invert only system. You can use media from fish system but make the first livestock fish only. If you are absolutely sure there is no copper or anything else in their fish system you can add inverts first but must wait more than 2 weeks to add fish.

 

[xdave]

PonieGirl, what else went in that tank? Was it just the LR? If so I think you just disproved the popular theory that LR can be used to filter water.

 

[defect808]

Dave arent you the one with the friend that doesnt do water changes? Its like the comercial....Set it and forget it, No cycle no changes, BAM!

Not knocking the way you do things, because im sure you have a badass tank, just no one will ever agree with you because its not the traditonal way of aquariums.

 

[alyssia]

***)

 

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by alyssia
***)
I just adore you!
Dave, I have an AquaClear 30 and a 220 PH in the 20. The sand is new. I used about 15 gal of the water from the 55 (couldn't see my way clear to spare more). There are so many variables to the insta-cycle that it's not funny.
AND I do not want to lose the chromis that I have raised from LFS fry-hood.
I still think a new hobbiest is best off, until the "BD's" of the industry can give us the simple scoop, just cycling their tank.

 

[hatessushi]

Like I said in my post I think it's a great idea. I just don't know of any LFS that I would put their water in my tank. That's back to the trust your LFS issue. I will however, do that the next time I set a tank up because I think it's a great idea (if I can find a trustworthy LFS). You've already explained why it is great idea.