Young and Inexpereanced. Please help.

[fretfreak13]

Hi, my name is Kali and I'm a new hobbyist, age fifteen. I've been making a loving my freshwater tanks ever since I was born (it all started with a blue Beta named Bob =]) with species ranging from simple Fancy Guppies, Angels, African Cichlids, Barbs, and Mollies to helping my dad out with his Sturgeon, Piranha, Discus, Arrowana, and large Koi pond. I went into our LFS one day and completely fell in love with their new stock of seahorses. I began research on saltwater after that, and though I'm not starting with Seahorses (heard that's a terrible idea), I still have a lot of questions about my new, unpopulated 29 gallon.
There is nothing in the tank except for some gravel I was given by a friend from his saltwater tank and a few pieces of coral that my mom had, which she got from Aruba. They are dead, but still have pretty formations. If I should remove them, let me know. When I received the "live gravel" I think it's called, I wasn't really told what to do with it. Thinking of it as freshwater gravel, I washed it (it was REALLLY disgustingly filthy and scummy) because I didn't want to expose my new tank to anything dangerous. Too late for that one, I guess.
I've read the 101 tips thread on this site, and though I understand most of it it's still pretty difficult to grasp for someone my age. I was hoping someone could break down the basics for me any more than that is, and trust me, being in an area with so many experienced people and asking for that kind of help makes me feel like a moron. But oh well, when you need help there's no other way to get it than asking for it.
What I'd like to ask is (extreme noob warning):
-When should I get my first fish?
-When should I get my first live rock?
-Do I have to quarantine live rock?
-I would like to get two domino damsel fish, two false percula clown fish, and two yellow tail damsel fish to cycle with. Are these hardy enough fish? Is this too many to start with in my tank?
-I like small fish (1-3 inches) best. With that being said, what is my tank capacity?
-What is the difference between an anemone and soft coral? They look similar. (and do soft coral sting too?)
-What does "roaming" mean when applying to anemones?
-Is it safe to put anemones in my tank if I have small fish? I hear they can get stung and killed.
-What are the different kinds of lighting and what do they do?
-My tank is sitting on a table, so there's no room for a fancy, huge, elaborate filter. Right now I'm using a clip on the back carbon filter that you would use in a freshwater tank. Is this bad or do I have to get a new filter? (keep in mind I'm fifteen, so the cheaper the better).
-I understand the beginning cycle a bit. I was hoping to use this http://www.fishyou.com/saltwater/tankcycle.html as a guide. Good idea or bad?
I'm sure I'll come up with some more. Please be patient with me if you decide to help, I'm a quick learner. Thanks for the help ahead of time.

 

[salt210]

first off, welcome to the board.
second we are hear to help, so dont be afraid to ask questions.
do not cycle with fish. if you add the Live rock to the tank and drop in a raw table shrimp the tank will begin to cycle on its own. trust me I made this mistake over 3yrs ago when I bought my 210g and am still regretting the decision.
as for the "live gravel" do you actually mean live sand or crushed coral? if not it will have to be removed.
the different types of lighting will mean that you will be able to keep photosynthetic organisms(corals and anemones) in the tank. the different types are: PC, T5, halides and flourescents.
that filter will be ok,, but to keep the tank healthy it is going to take a lot more work. the pads will have to be cleaned regularly.

 

[salt210]

just re-read your post. anemones that are roaming are actually looking for a spot they like in the tank by walking or perhapes even floating. some anemones are safe for fish and some are not.
anemones are going to take a more intense light. either T5 or metal halide.

 

[fretfreak13]

Salt210: Ok, so its safe to cycle with life rock, and not fish? I'm not quite sure exactally what the gravel was, should I take a picture and post it? Also, I do want to keep coral and anenomies, they're beautiful and well worth any work it takes for them. What do you think is the best lighting? Thank god on the filter answer, I was dreadding that most. Thanks. =)

 

[rondo]

Welcome, Don't worry about questions. I'm new to saltwater and 37 years old and still ask a ton. There are some great people here with lots of good advice. If the sand or gravel came from a friend's salt water tank then it should be "live" already although rinsing it with fresh may have removed some of the bacteria that you want. IMO, cycle with live rock and perhaps raw shrimp only. Cycling with live fish is kind of cruel to the fish. The biggest help to me has just been reading books and threads here and on other forums. There are lots of good threads about starting up a tank. Good Luck!

 

[fretfreak13]

Thanks. Now, when you say raw shrimp, do you mean live shrimp or dead ones? Would ghost shrimp be ok for live if that's what you mean, cause the first thing I though of when I read Salt210's post mention raw table shrimp, I picured the kind you dip in a nice, yummy cocktail sauce, dead, all chopped up, and maybe the decaying matter starts the cycle?

 

[rondo]

Yeah, the kind you eat. I believe most people use raw, not frozen. I've also heard of people using fish food and feeding "ghost" fish for awhile. The food will decay and kick off a cycle. Depending on the live rock you get (cured vs. uncured) there may be enough die off on the rock to start a cycle. Basically the tank needs something decaying to start the bacteria growing and begin a cycle.

 

[fretfreak13]

I didn't by any "saltwater" food. Can I just use freshwater goldfish flakes, or is that the same thing? Also, while this cycle is going, should I take out the carbon filter cartrage?

 

[rondo]

I would think any "food" that will decay would be fine, but I'll let some of the more experienced here answer that. It is my understanding that cycling is done best without any filtration or even lighting running during the cycle as the filtration can affect the bacterial growth which is the goal of the cycle. As I have recently learned the hard way make sure you use the best water you can get and avoid tap water even treated. Add your live rock and something to help kick off the cycle then just wait for the cycle which could take several weeks. For me that was a great time to do lots of reading and learning.

 

[fretfreak13]

Awesome, so I'll hold off on fish, throw a little food in there today, and shut everything off. What about heating? I have a heater in there, should that be nixed too?

 

[tizzo]

Originally Posted by Fretfreak13
http:///forum/post/3096029
-When should I get my first fish?
-When should I get my first live rock?
-Do I have to quarantine live rock?
-I would like to get two domino damsel fish, two false percula clown fish, and two yellow tail damsel fish to cycle with. Are these hardy enough fish? Is this too many to start with in my tank?
-I like small fish (1-3 inches) best. With that being said, what is my tank capacity?
-What is the difference between an anemone and soft coral? They look similar. (and do soft coral sting too?)
-What does "roaming" mean when applying to anemones?
-Is it safe to put anemones in my tank if I have small fish? I hear they can get stung and killed.
-What are the different kinds of lighting and what do they do?
-My tank is sitting on a table, so there's no room for a fancy, huge, elaborate filter. Right now I'm using a clip on the back carbon filter that you would use in a freshwater tank. Is this bad or do I have to get a new filter? (keep in mind I'm fifteen, so the cheaper the better).
-I understand the beginning cycle a bit. I was hoping to use this http://www.fishyou.com/saltwater/tankcycle.html as a guide. Good idea or bad?
I'm sure I'll come up with some more. Please be patient with me if you decide to help, I'm a quick learner. Thanks for the help ahead of time.
I like point blank questions so I'm gonna go through the list. And be forewarned that my answers will cause you to have more questions, but that's fine...
Your first fish comes after your cycle is complete and your "first three" concerns on water quality come back as 0. Those are ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. This most likely will take 6 weeks.
You can add live rock as soon as today. The more you add, if it is not by mail order, the faster your tank will cycle and will shorten that 6 week questimate from above.
Quarantine live rock is totally up to you. To be point blank, most of us don't, and the few of us that end up with things like mantis shrimps or bad crabs, well, we just deal witrh that when we see em. If you add LR (live rock) now, it kinda is like qting it...
Your fish list is OK, but you can't add them all at once. They are aggressive, but they are all damsels so they will hold their own with each other...
In a 29 gallon, those 6 fish is about all your gonna get in it without compromising your water quality.
I have no idea how to answer your anemone vs soft coral question without researching the sciences of them. Technically an anemone is a coral... It's just a sessile one. Well, more sessile than most others...
I think someone covered this (I skimmed) but roaming simply means that it moves. Some more than others. for example a condilactis anemone never really settles... LTA's wanna be in sand, BTA's wanna be in rocks, and they have a foot like a snail and will roam til they find the perfect spot. Can take a day, can take 6 months. />
Anemones can sting fish, but damsels are compitable and if they aren't they simply stay away from the anemone. Unless you get a carpet anemone...don't get a carpet anemone.
Lighting... Metal halide, VHO and NO.
Simply, the more intense the light, the more types of corals you can keep, and the more expensive it is. T-5 is popular as a happy medium but it is also a VHO (very high output, while NO is a no output)
With your size tank, if you keep up on water changes, your system should be fine. An accumulated 1% a day is what you wanna aim for, and no I'm not saying change out 1/3 gallon every day, but rather, add them up...then round up...ie, 3 (or round up to 5) gallons a week, or 5 every 2 weeks or...10 a month. Whatever works for you.
And I didn't look at your link so I can't comment.
welcome to the boards!

 

[tizzo]

Originally Posted by Fretfreak13
http:///forum/post/3096060
Awesome, so I'll hold off on fish, throw a little food in there today, and shut everything off. What about heating? I have a heater in there, should that be nixed too?
What is your tank's temp at??
What is the temp you are going for?

 

[salt210]

there is no need to shut everything off. maybe the lights unless you want to look at a empty tank.
anemones need a very stable environment, so they should only be added once you have all your maintence down to the T.
when referring to live rock it doesnt mean that the rock itself is alive like say a fish, it just means that it has the beneficial bacteria on it that will help the tanks biological filtration.

 

[fretfreak13]

Right now, I don't even know what temp it's at. I was supposed to get a thermometer today, but my dad got called into work. I put the heater in yesterday thinking it would take awhile to heat that freezing water, but after putting my hand in there today I guess I was wrong. It probably needs to be turned down. I'm hoping to keep it at seventy eight, since I read somewhere it needs to be a little higher for corals, right? Also, whens a good time to add in a cleanup crew. I was on one of those "package" sites where they sell you a bunch of little critters in one big package depending on your tank size and all seemed wayyyy to big for mine. I love crabs, they're so neat, but I want to make sure they don't hurt any corals. Here's what I'm hoping my crew will consist of when I get it, tell me what you think.
1 Sally Lightfoot Crab
1 Arrow Crab
2 Dwarf Blue Leg Hermit Crabs
2 Dwarf Red Tip Hermit Crabs
2 Dwarf Zebra Hermit Crabs
1 Emerald Crab
1 Electric Blue Hermit Crab
5 Astrar Turbo Snails
1 Banded Coral Shrimp
Too much, too little, too dangerous to anything...?

 

[salt210]

the cleanup crew should be added after the tank has completed its cycle but before you add any fish.
most heaters have a thermometer on them or at least some way of knowing what temp you are setting it at
also corals and other inverts need the tank around 78-80 as well

 

[fretfreak13]

Ok, but when I do add them, do you think that's a good sized crew for my tank? My heater has a little light on it that turns off when it stops, but the only way to really set it is with a reading on a different thermometer. Would raising the temp to 80 bother fish?

 

[king_neptune]

Welcome to the hobby.
A few key points that will help you grasp things a bit:
-Beginer Components checklist:
1 Tank 29 is not bad, bigger the better because they are more forgiving than smaller. Keep an eye on Craigslist. I got a 125gallon for less than $200 bucks. and a 55gallon for $20 bucks...so good deals are everywhere.
2 Lights-If you want a nice variety of corals ect then...T5's. If you want everything, clams corals, all species...then Metal Halide. This is up to you to decide, and will make a major impact on both cost, and complication.
3 Heater. 2 small heaters is better than one large..this is in case one fails you have a backup.
4 Filtration- This is a massive world...but some concepts to learn about are skimmer, fuge,sump, marco algea, phos/carbon reactors, RO-DI units, and turf scrubbers.
A little more about sumps: I would consider a cheap 10gallon tank(you can get one for 5 bucks), to use as your sump. This is basically the tank that sits underneath the main tank(or even in another room entirely...depends on how complicated you get). Inside the sump you have your filtration(remember the key words I suggested you learn about earlier)
In a nut shell: water drains from the Display down to the sump...where it is filtered and then it is pumped back up to the main display. This frees up your display tank and also increases the over all volume of your system...which is a good thing
5. Live rock. 20-30lbs for a tank your size. 20 should be a feasible amount since your probably not going to have a big wallet, but if mom and dad are supportive, they might be able to help.(hopefully they are reading this...because its nice your kid is into this hobby and not drugs^^)
Look on craigs list, Live Rock usually sells for 3-4bucks a pound. Or you can order here on SWF.com for $4 a pound...which is a smoking deal.
6. Live sand- This is also a filtration means, your "Rocks" that your friend gave you are probably nothing more than something to look at.
You don't want Rock...or crushed coral in your tank, imagine your a small fish who feeds off bacteria ect in the sand...how would you like to sift through large pebbles? you wouldn't. They need sand to suck on sand.
7. Water- ok a good RO-DI unit(Reverse osmosis- De Ionizer) is a must for most people. Your going to be changing water every week(approximately 2-3 gallons). You cant use tap water... you risk your fish, and going to Walmart filling up jugs of pure water will add up cost over time. These units cost 100 on up, so do the research. But its nice to have a steady safe supply of fresh water to mix into saltwater.
8. Flow- This is a vital part, you want good water flow inside your tank. A sump helps this, but also power heads as well. The reasoning is you want all the micro organisms to churn around in the tank. By doing so your corals and anemones get more food passing over them, and thus they feed better. They cant go to the food...it has to come to them. Starting off 20-30x your tank volume is a good number. But the more the better. Shoot for 50x.
Example:you have a 29gal tank...so you want 580-870 GPH churning around in your tank. This is a start. You can always upgrade later.
9. Test kits- There is a wide range of kits out there. Different brands and functions. Sea chem is a good brand, and easy to use. The assorted kits you will need will run you around 90-120 bucks. But should last you the rest of the year...or longer). Get a good refractometer. these are a must for anyone, they measure the density of the saltwater, which is mandatory to mix it properly. I got a used one onj Craigs list for $50 bucks).
Put it all together and you have your first build.
Now cycle it.
In a nutshell you are basically polluting the water in your tank to kick start the Live rock and Live sand into growing the correct bacteria to do filtration. One bacteria forms then gives way to the next and so on. In the end, usually about 6-8 weeks you can now put in your cleanup crew. These are a dozen or so cheap snails can crabs. It shouldn't cost more than $20-30 bucks to stock your tank. After a month you can start adding your first fish ect. From there its a balancing act...one at a time. Let it stabilize..then you can add another. Dont rush this, it can take years to fully stock a tank.
Now that you have read this all, you can start learning about the different things. Ask plenty of questions, its a healthy way to start in this hobby. Go at it slow and steady. Ive been reading for three years, and am just now getting my first tank together. Im still a noob by my standards^^

 

[king_neptune]

A lot of stuff can be found on craigs list for a fraction of the cost, this is a great way to save a ton of money. Also a lot of Do it your self projects can also save tons of money. You tube is a great resource. For example just type a keyword like "DIY SKimmer", build one your self. Its cheaper..not as good...but it will help since your just a teenager, and its a good alternative.
Hope I simplified things a bit for you and got you pointed in a good direction. Welcome to the hobby.

 

[socalnano24]

I dunno about having that many types of crabs (hermits are ok) but I'd pick one crab between the emerald, sally and arrow crab. Probably best to go with the emerald, they will not eat coral and other fish. Arrow crabs and sallys can be predators.

 

[king_neptune]

Originally Posted by Fretfreak13
http:///forum/post/3096072
Would raising the temp to 80 bother fish?

Stability is the key. You don't want fluctuation in the water temp to go more than a couple degrees up/down. 78-82 would be a good range. But make sure what ever you chose...it only goes up and down a couple degrees at the most example: 78low/80high. This reduces stress on fish ect.
Some people simulate high temp reefs, for example Indian ocean waters can hit upper 80's to low 90's. But for the most part upper 70's and low 80's is comfortable rang in temp.