Natural Filtration Question

[kellenr]

I have a 30g tank with natural filtration only (i.e. no filter, no skimmer). I have about 50lbs of LR and 40lbs of LS and 3 powerheads (tank turns over about 14x per hour).
I wanted to see if anyone has any advice or tips & tricks with tanks that run natural filtration? Will I ever need to add anything such as carbon etc., and can I do that just in a mesh bag submerged? Is there any other maintenance or pointers I should do or look out for?
I just removed my old small 'in-canopy' filter and bio-wheel and wanted to see what other people do that use the same method.

 

[lexluethar]

I would always run some type of mechanical filtration - that is just me though. I know you can have a 'naturally filtrated' system, but i think it becomes much more of a balancing act.
If you want/need to run carbon just place a bag in front of one of your powerheads, so that the PH is pushing the water through the carbon bag. Same deal as if you submersed a bag into a high flow area in your sump/fuge.

 

[m0nk]

Well, you'll likely want more flow if you're sticking with only LR for filtration. Do you have a sump? I would only do the mesh bag method of running carbon if it's in a location where a large volume of your tank's water will pass, like a sump in the final chamber or at least near the return pump or something. You can definitely get by without mechanical filtration, but get more flow going and then I'd still recommend even a small skimmer if you can fit one just because of the junk that they pull out. If you saw what can be pulled out by a skimmer you'd think they were pretty crucial.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2653343
Well, you'll likely want more flow if you're sticking with only LR for filtration. Do you have a sump? I would only do the mesh bag method of running carbon if it's in a location where a large volume of your tank's water will pass, like a sump in the final chamber or at least near the return pump or something. You can definitely get by without mechanical filtration, but get more flow going and then I'd still recommend even a small skimmer if you can fit one just because of the junk that they pull out. If you saw what can be pulled out by a skimmer you'd think they were pretty crucial.

Yeah I don't have a sump but I have tons of flow throughout my tank. I don't think it's possible to get 'more flow', I have 3 150gph powerheads in a 30g (each one is for a 55g tank). I could always place some carbon in a mesh bag infront of the powerhead, that wouldn't be hard. Would I need to add carbon you think though?
I may look into a skimmer. Fitting one is the only thing that has deterred me thus far. I simply don't have room in my setup.
Will any specific levels fluctuate more that I should know about? My old filter was nothing great by anymeans, just passed some water of the top of a filter cartridges and past the bio-wheels, it's not like I went from a canister filter to nothing now. Thanks.

 

[morval]

i would leave the filter on. it creates a little flow for the tank and any time u need to run carbon, phosban, or anything else all u need to do is pop it in there. as for skimmers there are a lot of HOB models, i have a octopus and it works great. i went a year without one and was amazed at what it pulls out of the water

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by KellenR
http:///forum/post/2653376
Yeah I don't have a sump but I have tons of flow throughout my tank. I don't think it's possible to get 'more flow', I have 3 150gph powerheads in a 30g (each one is for a 55g tank). I could always place some carbon in a mesh bag infront of the powerhead, that wouldn't be hard. Would I need to add carbon you think though?
I may look into a skimmer. Fitting one is the only thing that has deterred me thus far. I simply don't have room in my setup.
Will any specific levels fluctuate more that I should know about? My old filter was nothing great by anymeans, just passed some water of the top of a filter cartridges and past the bio-wheels, it's not like I went from a canister filter to nothing now. Thanks.
Turnover of 14x isn't actually a whole lot. I would only do that low of a level for a fish-only tank with plenty of mechanical filtration, personally. If you plan on having no mechanical filtration and maybe adding coral too you'll want more more flow. There are plenty of powerheads out there that you can use, or even a small one or two to add to the ones you have. I keep my tank at about 30+x, though I have SPS, but I don't run carbon or any specific mechanical filtration (I prefer not to use carbon at all) so my LR/LS/chaeto do all my filtration. The point is to get the water to flow in and out of the pores on the LR and across the LS with enough strength that it would be like it's flowing through the rock.

 

[smokingreefer]

Originally Posted by morval
http:///forum/post/2653399
i would leave the filter on. it creates a little flow for the tank and any time u need to run carbon, phosban, or anything else all u need to do is pop it in there. as for skimmers there are a lot of HOB models, i have a octopus and it works great. i went a year without one and was amazed at what it pulls out of the water
plus, it adds a place for beneficial bacteria to store up. you need a skimmer man, it will save you lots of time and money.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2653401
Turnover of 14x isn't actually a whole lot. I would only do that low of a level for a fish-only tank with plenty of mechanical filtration, personally. If you plan on having no mechanical filtration and maybe adding coral too you'll want more more flow. There are plenty of powerheads out there that you can use, or even a small one or two to add to the ones you have. I keep my tank at about 30+x, though I have SPS, but I don't run carbon or any specific mechanical filtration (I prefer not to use carbon at all) so my LR/LS/chaeto do all my filtration. The point is to get the water to flow in and out of the pores on the LR and across the LS with enough strength that it would be like it's flowing through the rock.
Ok well I appreciate the time being given on this however my question isn't whether or not I should remove the filter; it's about personal experience anyone has with a natural tank. I'm sure everyone already thinks leaving one on there is what 'they'd do".

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by KellenR
http:///forum/post/2653518
Ok well I appreciate the time being given on this however my question isn't whether or not I should remove the filter; it's about personal experience anyone has with a natural tank. I'm sure everyone already thinks leaving one on there is what 'they'd do".
I was trying to say that I'd go with more flow if you're only going to have LR as filtration, that's all. I'm with you, I don't like HOB filters.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2653523
I was trying to say that I'd go with more flow if you're only going to have LR as filtration, that's all. I'm with you, I don't like HOB filters.

Cool, I wasn't trying to sound rude (I just re-read my last post and it came off kind of rough, didn't mean for it to sound like that, lol). Anyway I mis-calculated my flow in my previous post. I have 4 powerheads in my tank, 3 are 200gph and 1 is 175gph, my turnover is just under 27x/hr. I do have LPS & anemones already but no SPS.
I was kinda weary about removing my filter but did it in order to build a new canopy that could handle more lights. My old filter was a basic in-canopy filter w/ bio-wheel that I honestly think wasn't doing much compared to my bio-filtration. I just want to make sure my tank will be cool. Filter has been out for 4 days now, everything is fine so far. I just want to make sure there's nothing I need to 'be aware of'. I would like a protein skimmer but they're just so big for my 29g tank and stick out big time. I'd have to mod my canopy again in order to accommodate it.

 

[iyachtuxivm]

Originally Posted by KellenR
http:///forum/post/2654358
I would like a protein skimmer but they're just so big for my 29g tank and stick out big time. I'd have to mod my canopy again in order to accommodate it.
I would, you will regret it later. I did the same thing on my 10 gal and nitrates got way out of hand, hair algae everywhere, cyano, not pretty. If you can fit a hob skimmer do so even a cheeper one will help. Good luck!

 

[mr_x]

what is your waterchange schedule like?
personally, if you did regular waterchanges( 20%-30% weekly, or so) and don't overfeed, i'd go without the skimmer.
for a small tank like that i'd hate to have to look at a skimmer hanging off of it, and the cost of waterchanges on a tank like that are quite minimal.
i disagree with a cheaper skimmer being better than nothing, unless you are looking at it from an aeration standpoint.
answering your question- with proper tank husbandry, i'd say you'll do just fine.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2661689
what is your waterchange schedule like?
personally, if you did regular waterchanges( 20%-30% weekly, or so) and don't overfeed, i'd go without the skimmer.
for a small tank like that i'd hate to have to look at a skimmer hanging off of it, and the cost of waterchanges on a tank like that are quite minimal.
i disagree with a cheaper skimmer being better than nothing, unless you are looking at it from an aeration standpoint.
answering your question- with proper tank husbandry, i'd say you'll do just fine.

Yeah I agree. The only reason I don't have a skimmer on there is because they're huge for that small tank. Plus my canopy wont fit a HOB anything and my tank is up against the wall so it would have to be a HOS and look even worse.
I'm pretty much doing 20%/2wks WC's right now anyway, and thats only 5gals which really isn't bad at all.

 

[iyachtuxivm]

I did weekly water changes of 3 gallons, only had 1 fish that I fed 2 time a week and had very little leftovers which cuc handled. I have seen a few very small skimers rated for 20- 30 gal tanks that are not too big. I am setting up a 22+ right now and havent decided what exactly I am doing but there will be a refug and skimmer involved! Good luck I will check back often too see how its going, keep updating please.

 

[sepulatian]

If you want a truly natural system, without filters, then it is best to have a larger cleanup crew, a skimmer, and a refugium. I didn't notice how deep your sand bed is but you need a way to export nitrates. Doing water changes will not make up for lack of skimmer and mechanical filtration. Think of the ocean. It has the largest skimmer and filter of them all, they are the waves. You must keep a very diverse array of inverts to eat detritus, fish food, and algae on all levels of the tank.
A system that can run on it's own (with the help of a few PH's) takes years to establish.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2662768
...I didn't notice how deep your sand bed is but you need a way to export nitrates...
About 3-4 inches.
UPDATE: I purchased a smaller style in-tank 3 stage wet/dry filter that is made for the 29gal biocube. It's the overflow box style with a filter pad, carbon & bioballs. It has a built in powerhead return that moves 175gph. It is very small and slim, 4"x2"x7" I believe. I has an adjustable return so I'm going to replace 1 of my powerheads with it, (I have 4 PH's now, about 26x/hr turnover), but may keep them all if I have room. I think this will help get some larger particles out of the water and keep the surface debris to a minimum. I really don't need the biofiltration part but I don't think it would hurt to have this in there.

 

[michaeltx]

I have seen these before youll have to keep us updated on how it works. I have wandered about them.
Mike

 

[sepulatian]

Does this stick out from the tank or it is completely sunk in? Be sure at least one of the power heads break the water surface.

 

[kellenr]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2663152
Does this stick out from the tank or it is completely sunk in? Be sure at least one of the power heads break the water surface.
Well its an in-tank, I believe the rim is just at about water surface level, like an overflow box would sit, the slits allow continuation of flow if your water level drops a tad due to evap..
Yeah I have crazy PH action going on. I actually have 2 directed toward the surface on opposite sides, ripples and agitation like crazy yet 0 microbubbles. The 3rd PH is on the side directed behind the rockwork. The 4th on the other side, oscillating power sweeper, blows across the sand bed and front of the tank. There are no dead-spots at all. You can actually watch pieces of food, or anything else for that matter, take full 'laps' around the tank from top to bottom then behind the rocks then back out front and to the top again. Everything remains suspended in the water column, nothing sits.
Thats why I purchased this surface skimmer type filter... the only place I have debris accumulate is at the surface. It's not the best filter by any means but its exactly what I need in my situation. Hope it does well, should be receiving it in 2 days, I'll update.

 

[mr_x]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2662768
Think of the ocean. It has the largest skimmer and filter of them all

but..the ocean doesn't do waterchanges. removing waste is the goal we are trying to accomplish.
i know more than a handfull of people who keep picos/nanos and don't have skimmers and they keep difficult corals successfully.