125 Reef Tank Build
- Thread starter veni vidi vici
- Start date
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Hey BeanAnimal,
I hope you don't mind me sharing you design over here.I think its an outstanding design ,and it fits perfectly with what i want to do with my tank.Cant wait to get it started.I should be done with the stand by Sunday,then i can start on the tank
I hope you don't mind me sharing you design over here.I think its an outstanding design ,and it fits perfectly with what i want to do with my tank.Cant wait to get it started.I should be done with the stand by Sunday,then i can start on the tank
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Originally Posted by TurningTim
http:///forum/post/2605889
I'd let you use my saws but it would be cheaper to get from the bay! I believe "Lau" is the sellers name. I've drilled a bunch of holes with these bits and they work great. Not bad for $25 bucks for 2 saws.
It's really not Beans idea. Great guy anywho! I think it the coast to coast really hit with Anthony Calfo when he was on -- and continued over at MD forums.
I have done both of my new tanks this way but didn't go all the way from side to side. I left room at the ends for returns. I'll dig up a pic or the thread that I started a hundred years ago and still haven't gotten the tanks done!!!!!
HTH
Tim
Linky to my thread! Might find some helpful stuff!
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=284317
Thanx for the link and info Tim.I found some really cheap bits @ Glass-Holes $13 free shipping
http:///forum/post/2605889
I'd let you use my saws but it would be cheaper to get from the bay! I believe "Lau" is the sellers name. I've drilled a bunch of holes with these bits and they work great. Not bad for $25 bucks for 2 saws.
It's really not Beans idea. Great guy anywho! I think it the coast to coast really hit with Anthony Calfo when he was on -- and continued over at MD forums.
I have done both of my new tanks this way but didn't go all the way from side to side. I left room at the ends for returns. I'll dig up a pic or the thread that I started a hundred years ago and still haven't gotten the tanks done!!!!!
HTH
Tim
Linky to my thread! Might find some helpful stuff!
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=284317
Thanx for the link and info Tim.I found some really cheap bits @ Glass-Holes $13 free shipping
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Hey Bean, why you gotta be so defensive! All I said was I didn't see the point in it. And I don't see the point in it. No more than I see the point in wearing a 5 point harness in my Ram 1500. IMO 2 is sufficient. Why don't we make one with 4 pipes? That way in case the fail safe fails we have a backup fails safe. I read the whole thread over there and there were several who would side with me. It's fine to do it that way if you want. But being asinine by repeatedly telling me to look up fail safe is just pointless. I understand fail safe, that IMO is what the second pipe in a "Hermie Style" drain is. I use that term "Hermie Style" because that's what those who use it usually recognize it as. Just because I don't have a high post count over at -- doesn't mean I don't frequent there. Anyways I meant no harm, just expressed my opinion.
And I am not "clearly unaware of it's basic principles". I understand them clearly. The "first pipe is a gravity charged drain, The second pipe would be a fail safe, your third pipe is the smooth things out a little and provide extra flow should the primary drain become 100 percent clogged (would need to be 100% clogged in order for the fail safe to not handle all the flow of the drain...should it be clogged ALSO). My opinion is based on the grounds that if the primary drain gets clogged, the emergency drain will handle the portion it's not handling. If set up properly, you will be alerted to the blockage, and take action. Clear the clog and go on.
The likely hood of both pipes being blocked IMO is slim. If your practicing good husbandry. If you like it there then that's great, also, if you want wear your 5 point harness in the family car then that's great too.
The likely hood of both pipes being blocked IMO is slim. If your practicing good husbandry. If you like it there then that's great, also, if you want wear your 5 point harness in the family car then that's great too.
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Just finished up the basic canopy ,in the next few days i hope to get to the fun part....trim and doors.
Then my least favorite part stain and seal.
I have an idea on what im going to do for my electrical box,Since i have 2x4 framing set up correctly on the side of my stand, i may just close off the inside of one side and install outlet boxes on the inside of the stand and switches on the outside .I think it will work out nice ...all my switches just inside my left side door.
I also have an idea for the ******** of the stand...Rhino Liner,if i can find a small quantity for a decent price.
Here is where im at today:
Then my least favorite part stain and seal.
I have an idea on what im going to do for my electrical box,Since i have 2x4 framing set up correctly on the side of my stand, i may just close off the inside of one side and install outlet boxes on the inside of the stand and switches on the outside .I think it will work out nice ...all my switches just inside my left side door.
I also have an idea for the ******** of the stand...Rhino Liner,if i can find a small quantity for a decent price.
Here is where im at today:
B
beananimal
Guest
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2606953
Hey Bean, why you gotta be so defensive! All I said was I didn't see the point in it. And I don't see the point in it.
Then you clearly do not understand it, or the reasoning behind it. I am not being defensive. I am pointing out that your comments are not well founded. They are based on a lack of understanding. After reading your last post, that has become even more obvious.
Why don't we make one with 4 pipes? That way in case the fail safe fails we have a backup fails safe.
Becuase the 4th standpipe does not offer a logical benefit for any reasonable or common failure mode. Your comments show a complete lack of understanding and a rather childish perspective with regard to learning new things. I am sorry to be so blunt, but poor information is poor information.
I read the whole thread over there and there were several who would side with me.
And over 900 people agreed with Jim Jones and drank the Kool Aid. Does finding like minded people mean that ones opinions are valid or well formed? I can name the FEW people that would side with you, and each one of them is a troll or a nitwit. If you really read the thread, you would see that the informed folks would (and do) agree on both counts (the veracity of the design and the trolls and nitwits).
It's fine to do it that way if you want. But being asinine by repeatedly telling me to look up fail safe is just pointless.
It is not pointless, you very clearly do not understand the concept. Your comments speak for themselves. You clearly do not understand "fail-safe" or how it relates to the overflow design (mine or herbies)
I understand fail safe, that IMO is what the second pipe in a "Hermie Style" drain is.
[/b] Your OPINION is the key word. Again, being blunt, not all opinions are well formed or valid. The second drain is not a fail-safe. To say that it is, shows that you simply do not understand the operation of the standpipes and/or what fail-safe means. There is no problem with somebody NOT understanding. The problem comes when it is pointed out but they refuse to admit it.
I understand them clearly. The "first pipe is a gravity charged drain, The second pipe would be a fail safe, your third pipe is the smooth things out a little and provide extra flow should the primary drain become 100 percent clogged
No, NO and NO. that is not at all how it works agt all. Again, you have illustrated that you DON'T know how it works. That makes your comments invalid. That is why I have a problem. You keep insisting that you understand and comment accordingly. You don't understand. Your captioning of the renderings was very wrong, as is your explanation above. I am not sure what else to say. The operational information has been rovided on my site and in the thread. Many people have implemented the design and are able to confirm the validity and performance. Please, if you wish to comment further, take the time to understand what you are commenting about. That is the basis of my entire gripe.
My opinion is based on the grounds that if the primary drain gets clogged, the emergency drain will handle the portion it's not handling. If set up properly, you will be alerted to the blockage, and take action. Clear the clog and go on.
NO, not even close. Your opinion is based on the wrong understanding of the operation. Furthermore, how is one "alerted" if they out of town for a day or a week?
The bottom line: I could care less if you like me or my design. If you are going to comment on it, then at least be informed. Spreading poor information does nobody any good.
the egregious
Member
Wow....
......
Well I'm going to go make some coffee
......
Well I'm going to go make some coffee
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Only got a chance too spend a little time on stand tonight but got started on some of the column detail.
Im going to be ordering some parts for my coast to coast and closed loop.Ive decided to go with the Reeflo Dart for my pump.If i what ive read is correct im going to need a 2" bulk head and the return will be 1.5".(If anyone has this pump ,any advice on how to set it up would be greatly appreciated.) Any help with my closed loop set up would be greatly appreciated.Im thinking manifold for the return line but i havent decided if i want to put it up top or on the bottom.Suggestions?
Im going to be ordering some parts for my coast to coast and closed loop.Ive decided to go with the Reeflo Dart for my pump.If i what ive read is correct im going to need a 2" bulk head and the return will be 1.5".(If anyone has this pump ,any advice on how to set it up would be greatly appreciated.) Any help with my closed loop set up would be greatly appreciated.Im thinking manifold for the return line but i havent decided if i want to put it up top or on the bottom.Suggestions?
wattsupdoc
Active Member
Beananimal,
Apparently I cant seem to make you understand that I DO UNDERSTAND the design. I list the pipes in different order than you do, but still it's the same. You have a primary drain, an open drain that keeps things evened out, allows water to drain as needed, and a 3rd that is backup. I don't see the point in your "second pipe"( what I was calling the 3rd pipe). That my opinion, it's not that it's a bad design, I just don't see the need in drilling the 3rd hole and getting that involved in the plumbing/. For me, 2 will do. It's not that I don't understand what it's for, I just don't see the need in it being there. I don't have any problem at all learning new things, but you for some reason want every person who sees your design to believe it's going to revolutionize this hobby. That no-one could possibly see it as anything other than that. To me it's like putting putting the training wheels back on my 12 y.o. sons bike. I clean my modified versions of stockmans monthly. There is NO WAY anything larger than a nassarius snail can get into my OF boxes to block them. My OF's HAVE TEETH ON THEM. A large blockage is possible, but not likely in a period of a day, possibly in a week if something crazy is going on, but I leave my tank in qualified hands when I leave. Additionally, a properly set up stockman/durso or other standpipe design when a blockage occurs will surge and help to purge the blockage. As the blockage occurs the level rises, then eventually a surge occurs as the pipe "flushes" this will clear many clogs, as well as alert the user to an issue. My modified stockmans are extremely quite and very stable. My 135 is in my home office. Furthermore, if your design was so special you wouldn't have to defend it so ferociously. There is no need to be insulting. I never called you're intense defensive rude behavior childish, I am an adult and conduct myself as such.
Venni Vddi Vicci,
I'm sorry if we have jacked your thread
Your stand and canopy look great. I know O'rielys sells a roll on type bed liner .I think it's called Herculiner, or something. You can get just a quart of it. It might be what your after.
I will refrain from comment more regarding the drain set up, again, sorry!
Apparently I cant seem to make you understand that I DO UNDERSTAND the design. I list the pipes in different order than you do, but still it's the same. You have a primary drain, an open drain that keeps things evened out, allows water to drain as needed, and a 3rd that is backup. I don't see the point in your "second pipe"( what I was calling the 3rd pipe). That my opinion, it's not that it's a bad design, I just don't see the need in drilling the 3rd hole and getting that involved in the plumbing/. For me, 2 will do. It's not that I don't understand what it's for, I just don't see the need in it being there. I don't have any problem at all learning new things, but you for some reason want every person who sees your design to believe it's going to revolutionize this hobby. That no-one could possibly see it as anything other than that. To me it's like putting putting the training wheels back on my 12 y.o. sons bike. I clean my modified versions of stockmans monthly. There is NO WAY anything larger than a nassarius snail can get into my OF boxes to block them. My OF's HAVE TEETH ON THEM. A large blockage is possible, but not likely in a period of a day, possibly in a week if something crazy is going on, but I leave my tank in qualified hands when I leave. Additionally, a properly set up stockman/durso or other standpipe design when a blockage occurs will surge and help to purge the blockage. As the blockage occurs the level rises, then eventually a surge occurs as the pipe "flushes" this will clear many clogs, as well as alert the user to an issue. My modified stockmans are extremely quite and very stable. My 135 is in my home office. Furthermore, if your design was so special you wouldn't have to defend it so ferociously. There is no need to be insulting. I never called you're intense defensive rude behavior childish, I am an adult and conduct myself as such.
Venni Vddi Vicci,
I'm sorry if we have jacked your thread
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Its quite alright,ill just type right around you guys .
B
beananimal
Guest
wattsupdoc;2610113 said:Beananimal,Apparently I cant seem to make you understand that I DO UNDERSTAND the design. No you can't, because not a thing you have said to this point is correct. I have seen a lot of opinion and a lot of straw arguements, thats about it. Your initial comments in this thread (before I got here) demonstrated that you had no clue what you were talking about. You spoke as if you had the facts, but instead were simply spouting your opinion.
You have a primary drain, an open drain that keeps...
Yes, I guess the third time is a charm isn't itThe primary drain is a SIPHON. There is no air, and therefore there is no noise. The second standpipe that "keeps things evened out" is open channel (like your durso). It is silent due to the very low flow. Without the 3rd "emergency" drain, the system would flood on startup. Furthermore, without the 3rd drain, I would not have a fail-safe. It is that simple.
Your flip (childish?) comments regarding a 4th and 5th drain make utterly no sense. We can use math (statistics) or a truth table (logic) to show why the 3rd drain adds significant function but a 4th or 5th drain does not. This is not opinion Doc, it is simple fact.
I don't see the point in your "second pipe"...
Then you don't fully understand the design, or the reasoning behind it. Back to the point that: Not all opinions are good opinions, and not all opinions are well formed opinions.
I have no problem with differing opinion. I do have a problem with the propogation of bad information.
YOU may not desire to wear a 5 point harness or be interested in the benefits of doing so, that is your decision. Telling people they are useless is providing people with incorrect information based on your OPINION. That opinion is not supported by the facts. That same flawed logic is why we are at this point in this conversation.
but you for some reason want every person who sees your design to believe it's going to revolutionize this hobby. That no-one could possibly see it as anything other than that.
No, not at all. I could care less who uses it or who does not like it. I just don't like it when opinion gets passed off as fact. I can accept the fact that YOU don't feel that you have a need for my widget. I do have a problem with you telling people that my widget is pointless and basing the reasoning on a lack of understanding about the design or its operation.
To me it's like putting putting the training wheels back on my 12 y.o. sons bike.
Comments like that go a long way to illustrating your lack of understanding and your childish approach to a debate. Worse, it makes utterly no sense.
r />I clean my modified versions of stockmans monthly. There is NO WAY anything larger... What in the world does that have to do with MY overflow design and YOUR COMMENTS on ITS FUNCTIONALITY. We are not talking about YOUR tank or YOUR needs.
Since you brought the topic up:
1) My design handles significantly more flow than a durso or stockman of the same size can. It is DEAD silent, not just quiet. This is not possible with a stockman or durso at any significant flow.
2) The design is fail-safe for any common mode of failure, something a Durso, Stockman or similar setup is not. If something "crazy" (to use your words) goes on, I don't have a flood. I don't replace $4,000 worth of carpet and destroy a newly installed home theater and office.
3) I do not have a qualified person to leave the tank to when I am out of town. It has to be fully safe with regard to flow.
4) FWIW teeth cut down on surface skimming, I don't use them and the overflow was designed accordingly.
Additionally, a properly set up stockman/durso or other standpipe design when a blockage occurs will surge...
Nobody said that they wouldn't. It is still not fail-safe or silent. They do not handle the same amount of flow that my setup will. The design was born out of the need to improve the Stockman/Durso setup.
My modified stockmans are extremely quite and very stable.
Nobody said they weren't. That has nothing to do with my design.
My 135 is in my home office.
So what? What in the world does that have to do with anything?
Furthermore, if your design was so special you wouldn't have to defend it so ferociously. There is no need to be insulting. I never called you're intense defensive rude behavior childish, I am an adult and conduct myself as such.
Thats a laugh. You just insulted me in the previous sentance. I never said my design was special. I said you YOU were making uninformed comments about it. I said that you were using illogical arguements to justify your opinions.
Have a nice evening.. (honestly). I have to get back to work.
wattsupdoc
Active Member
MY point is that the Hebie style is reliable also with just 2 pipes.
The failsafe is in place. My single pipe stockman is reliable. I do maintanence on them to prevent blockages such as sponges, worms other buildup from slowing the flow, so therefore I cant get a flood as a result of those things occuring. Besides critters entering the OF compartment, growth limiting the flow rate, what other possibilities are there to cause a properly opperating system to suddenly flood? ALSO, my fish need fed a few times over a weeks period. My tank is in my office where it must be silent.
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beananimal
Guest
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2610526
MY point is that the Hebie style is reliable also with just 2 pipes.
But it is not "fail-safe" that is the entire point
If the Secondary standpipe becomes clogged (even partially), then the HERBIE system overflows. Period. There is no fail-safe. The only other option is that the HERBIE system (as first descirbed in his thread) USES ONLY A SINGLE STANDPIPE and the SECOND STAYS DRY. That system does not stay balanced well due to a low bandwidth. The second standpipe HANDLING A PORTION OF THE FLOW is what creates the wide "self tuning" bandwidth of the siphpon. You clearly don't understand this. Once the second standpipe becomes part of the balancing system, it is no longer a fail-safe and furthermore it becomes a danger if it clogs.
My single pipe stockman is reliable.
Nobody said it wasn't.
I do maintanence on them to prevent blockages such as sponges, worms other buildup from slowing the flow, so therefore I cant get a flood as a result of those things occuring. Besides critters entering the OF compartment, growth limiting the flow rate, what other possibilities are there to cause a properly opperating system to suddenly flood? ALSO, my fish need fed a few times over a weeks period. My tank is in my office where it must be silent.
[/b] We are not talking about YOUR tank. You made general comments regarding an overflow design. Those comments showed a lack of understand. You are chaning the subject to what works for YOU.
Silent and quiet are two different things. What is acceptable to one person may not be to another. The level of safety that is acceptable to one person may not be acceptable to another.
As it stands, the setup that I am using is capable of a MUCH higher flow than a stockman or durso setup. That is basic phyiscs and not a point that can be argued. It can handle that (or any) flow in a DEAD SILENT manner. When i say DEAD SILENT, I mean no noise. 3,000 GPH through (2) 1" bulkheads and NO sound whatsoever. You can't do that with (2) 1" stockman or durso standpipes. You can't do that with a 1" "herbie" overflow and have ANY margin of safety, the system would be maxed out and a small blockage would create a flood.
The design can be scaled down to use SMALLER plumbing on a lower flow or smaller system. The facts still hold true. It will be silent and fail-safe as opposed to the same size "herbie" or stockman/durso.
Off to work, have a nice day.
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Pretty close to finishing up trim .Tomorrow ill finish up and start on the doors.Im starting to focus a little on my closed loop system.As i said before im going to be using a Reeflo Dart pump.It will be pumping out around 3600 gph.If anyone has this pump i could use some help here.I also would like to see some of your closed loop plumbing.I still would like to do some sort of manifold with maybe 6 returns in it ,8 if possible.
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beananimal
Guest
That is a LOT of flow through the closed loop intake. You will want to divide it between several intakes to ensure the safety if you livestock. This can be done with multiple intake bulkheads or with a single intake bulkhead split off (via internal plumbing) to several intake screen.
I may have missed it, but how do you plan to return the water from the closed loop? The oceans motions devices are top notch.
I may have missed it, but how do you plan to return the water from the closed loop? The oceans motions devices are top notch.
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Ive revised my CL plan so tell me what you think.
2"drilled input to pump ,center and directly under my coast to coast.1.5" return over the top off center of input to a Tee going both ways on back of tank to corners ,90 to center of sides.At center of sides 90's reduced to .75 pipe.At this point ill use Line-Loc "Y" with 3" Line-Loc and nozzle.
What do you think?
2"drilled input to pump ,center and directly under my coast to coast.1.5" return over the top off center of input to a Tee going both ways on back of tank to corners ,90 to center of sides.At center of sides 90's reduced to .75 pipe.At this point ill use Line-Loc "Y" with 3" Line-Loc and nozzle.
What do you think?
veni vidi vici
Active Member
Originally Posted by BeanAnimal
http:///forum/post/2611417
That is a LOT of flow through the closed loop intake. You will want to divide it between several intakes to ensure the safety if you livestock. This can be done with multiple intake bulkheads or with a single intake bulkhead split off (via internal plumbing) to several intake screen.
I may have missed it, but how do you plan to return the water from the closed loop? The oceans motions devices are top notch.
Do you think two 1.5 bulkhead with strainers for intake will be enough or should i go with four?How ever many i do ,i want to keep the holes the same size as the holes for your coast to coast design so i dont have to buy another hole saw bit.
http:///forum/post/2611417
That is a LOT of flow through the closed loop intake. You will want to divide it between several intakes to ensure the safety if you livestock. This can be done with multiple intake bulkheads or with a single intake bulkhead split off (via internal plumbing) to several intake screen.
I may have missed it, but how do you plan to return the water from the closed loop? The oceans motions devices are top notch.
Do you think two 1.5 bulkhead with strainers for intake will be enough or should i go with four?How ever many i do ,i want to keep the holes the same size as the holes for your coast to coast design so i dont have to buy another hole saw bit.
rotarygeek
Member
wow i dont know what they are talking about, but it sounds pretty cool. but as it stands, i agree with the guy about the system being totally fail safe. cant beat that with a stick.
wattsupdoc
Active Member
But it is not "fail-safe" that is the entire point
If the Secondary standpipe becomes clogged (even partially), then the HERBIE system overflows. Period. There is no fail-safe. The only other option is that the HERBIE system USES ONLY A SINGLE STANDPIPE and the SECOND STAYS DRY.
YES Exactly how does a standpipe get 100% blocked anyways? Keep stuff out of the standpipe area and IT CANT CAUSE A BLOCKAGE. Clean 'em periodically and flow will not be inhibited. PERIOD! So the "Herbie" style does have a fails safe and it wont flood. Also Because it is DRY IT CANT LOGICALLY BECOME BLOCKED. I dont believe you fully understand the "Herbie" style.
Nobody said it wasn't.
Yes you did, you said it has an inherent problem with potential to flood.
We are not talking about YOUR tank. You made general comments regarding an overflow design. Those comments showed a lack of understand. You are chaning the subject to what works for YOU.
My point in bringing up my tank with just stockmans is that partly you claim stockmans, Dursos, and the "Herbie" style to have a problem with potential flooding. I dissagree that they are not much more prone to flooding than your's is. If proper husbandry is practiced. Actually, if your telling me you dont prevent things from getting to the drains, or maintain your drains, then you are more likely to flood even with the 3 pipes than I am with just one.
Silent and quiet are two different things. What is acceptable to one person may not be to another. The level of safety that is acceptable to one person may not be acceptable to another.
Mine is soooo quite the only sound of flowing water you hear comes from the surface agitaion in the tank. Caused by the powerheads moving water around. Maybe a slight tricklre from the return lines syphon break sparying a tad bit into the OF compartment.
As it stands, the setup that I am using is capable of a MUCH higher flow than a stockman or durso setup.
Why does Vinni, need 3000gph through his sump/fuge?
Also the Herbie would handle this if the water level was raised higher above the drain. You'rs would also. Less stable, most likely, but not in a fashion as to be eminent to flood. Additionally, yours are simply dursos wich are submerged, submerge any stockman/durso it will do the same. Additionally, why not just increase the drain size and not need the open channel pipe?
br />
It can handle that (or any) flow in a DEAD SILENT manner. When i say DEAD SILENT, I mean no noise. 3,000 GPH through (2) 1" bulkheads and NO sound whatsoever. You can't do that with (2) 1" stockman or durso standpipes. You can't do that with a 1" "herbie" overflow and have ANY margin of safety, the system would be maxed out and a small blockage would create a flood.
A "small" blockage would not necassarily flood, but a larger one would. But so would a large blockage to your design. Granted it's less likely both your pipes should become blocked, but IF PROPER MEASURES ARE TAKEN TO PROTECT THE DURSO'S, STOCKMANS, OR "HERBIE". THEN A BLOCKAGE IS NOT VERY LIKELY WITH THEM EITHER. I keep asking myself..."Where is this blockage supposed to come from?"
So you take any type OF, put your system in it, with no protection from fish, snails, crabs or other potential "blockages". And you take a Stockman behind a toothed OF box, with eggcrate over the top and who's most likely to get a blockage? I see the need for protection with the "failsafe'. But if other measures are taken then the stockman is fine without ANY failsafe. Additionally, a single submerged standpipe as used in the "Herbie" is fine without a "failsafe". Because the cure is in prevention. But "Herbie's" design gives you a failsafe.
Also, why not just increase the drain size? Instead of adding another drain.
Your system is fine if thats the way you like it. Me, myself, I believe in keeping things simple. The simpler they are, the less problems you'll have. Overcomplicate things, and things just get more complicated, unnecessairly so.
If the Secondary standpipe becomes clogged (even partially), then the HERBIE system overflows. Period. There is no fail-safe. The only other option is that the HERBIE system USES ONLY A SINGLE STANDPIPE and the SECOND STAYS DRY.
YES Exactly how does a standpipe get 100% blocked anyways? Keep stuff out of the standpipe area and IT CANT CAUSE A BLOCKAGE. Clean 'em periodically and flow will not be inhibited. PERIOD! So the "Herbie" style does have a fails safe and it wont flood. Also Because it is DRY IT CANT LOGICALLY BECOME BLOCKED. I dont believe you fully understand the "Herbie" style.
Nobody said it wasn't.
Yes you did, you said it has an inherent problem with potential to flood.
We are not talking about YOUR tank. You made general comments regarding an overflow design. Those comments showed a lack of understand. You are chaning the subject to what works for YOU.
My point in bringing up my tank with just stockmans is that partly you claim stockmans, Dursos, and the "Herbie" style to have a problem with potential flooding. I dissagree that they are not much more prone to flooding than your's is. If proper husbandry is practiced. Actually, if your telling me you dont prevent things from getting to the drains, or maintain your drains, then you are more likely to flood even with the 3 pipes than I am with just one.
Silent and quiet are two different things. What is acceptable to one person may not be to another. The level of safety that is acceptable to one person may not be acceptable to another.
Mine is soooo quite the only sound of flowing water you hear comes from the surface agitaion in the tank. Caused by the powerheads moving water around. Maybe a slight tricklre from the return lines syphon break sparying a tad bit into the OF compartment.
As it stands, the setup that I am using is capable of a MUCH higher flow than a stockman or durso setup.
Why does Vinni, need 3000gph through his sump/fuge?
br />
It can handle that (or any) flow in a DEAD SILENT manner. When i say DEAD SILENT, I mean no noise. 3,000 GPH through (2) 1" bulkheads and NO sound whatsoever. You can't do that with (2) 1" stockman or durso standpipes. You can't do that with a 1" "herbie" overflow and have ANY margin of safety, the system would be maxed out and a small blockage would create a flood.
A "small" blockage would not necassarily flood, but a larger one would. But so would a large blockage to your design. Granted it's less likely both your pipes should become blocked, but IF PROPER MEASURES ARE TAKEN TO PROTECT THE DURSO'S, STOCKMANS, OR "HERBIE". THEN A BLOCKAGE IS NOT VERY LIKELY WITH THEM EITHER. I keep asking myself..."Where is this blockage supposed to come from?"
So you take any type OF, put your system in it, with no protection from fish, snails, crabs or other potential "blockages". And you take a Stockman behind a toothed OF box, with eggcrate over the top and who's most likely to get a blockage? I see the need for protection with the "failsafe'. But if other measures are taken then the stockman is fine without ANY failsafe. Additionally, a single submerged standpipe as used in the "Herbie" is fine without a "failsafe". Because the cure is in prevention. But "Herbie's" design gives you a failsafe.
Also, why not just increase the drain size? Instead of adding another drain.
Your system is fine if thats the way you like it. Me, myself, I believe in keeping things simple. The simpler they are, the less problems you'll have. Overcomplicate things, and things just get more complicated, unnecessairly so.
B
beananimal
Guest
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2611444
YES Exactly how does a standpipe get 100% blocked anyways? Keep stuff out of the standpipe area and IT CANT CAUSE A BLOCKAGE. Clean 'em periodically and flow will not be inhibited.[/b]
Jaw dropping... You still don't understand. This entire exchange has been a waste becuase you can't see past your own malformed opinions. For every point that is brought up you twist it a bit and add an example or tangent to fit your opinion. Instead of winning on the merits of your position, you change the subject.
Prevention is in the cure? Good grief.
Yes, DOC, you answer fact with opinion. You argue by spinning like a politician, it is intellectually dishonest and shows your utter lack of understanding. I guess if you can't win an arguement, twist the topic so that it appears you did? Counter with useless points to make it appear like you have have a greater knowledge?
Do I have to quote your initial posts in this thread to remind you we are talking about YOUR COMMENTS and NOT YOUR FISH TANK?
As for the Herbie overflow and my understanding of how it works. Get a grip, go read the original thread. I explained (and defended) his design to the uninformed. That included explaining the MUST HAVE 2nd standpipe for EMERGENCY OVERFLOW. I happened to improve upon the design to fit my needs and those of others. My setup handles more flow and does so safely and silently with less chance of it falling out of adjustment. It has 3 seperate safety features that allow it to work in a fail-safe manner. There are several key differences, but the adjustment bandwidth and safety are the ones that stand out.
Your entire post is full of twisted nonsense and I just don't have the energy to counter every point AGAIN. You do not appear to be able to stay on the actual topic and continue to fold in useless arguements. Notice, I keep saying the same thing but your counters keep evolving and becoming more disconnected to the actual subject? You actually now brought up the "how much flow does vinnie really need". Good grief, lets fold that in too. What is the PROPER flow rate through a sump? What is wasteful and what is useful?
NO Doc, they are not"just submerged dursos". To even make that arguement shows once again that you are utterly clueless with regard to the function, failure modes and operating parameters of these overflows (any of them).
A durso works by allowing AIR to enter the standpipe. Depending on the flow, the drop (negative head) and the diameter of the pipe, the air will either be noisy or quiet. More air means less overall flow, less air means more flow but the a greater chance of turbulance because the air can start to form pockets in the pipe. You see Doc, the Durso (or Stockman) works somewhere between laminar open channel flow and laminar full siphon, usually a turbulant partial siphon. They are VERY prone to changes in barometric pressure, water parameters, slime coats and other factors. For ANY given DURSO or STOCKMAN the "quiet" mode of operation is function of the air/water ratio as it relates to the length and diamter of the standpipe. I suppose you will want to argue about them (the durso and stockmans also).
So yes DOC, Stockmans and Durso can be quiet. The entire reason that HERBIE, MYSELF and others designed overflows was because they ARE TOO DEPENDENT ON TOO MANY VARIALES. At high flow rates or over long drops they can be very problematic.
To your next irrelevant comment: Nobody said that Vinni had to run 3000 GPH. Why do people like you INSIST on debating by confusing the topic with stuff like this. Who gives a damn what size return pump Vinni plans on using. You made Uninfomred comments in the opening of this thread and continue to flounder around trying to justify them. This design (and the Herbie design) are not dependent on a high flow system. Furthermore they can be SCALED DOWN to fit low flow systems. One could easily use 1/2" or 3/4" standpipes on a low flow system.
Why not increase the drain size and forgio the open channel pipe? Because the OPEN CHANNEL pipe is what provides the VERY WIDE operating bandwidth. That has been covered here, my thread and on my website. This is one of the key benefits compared to the HERBIE setup. Again DOC, if you took your foot out of your mouth long enough to breath, you would see the difference.
Open your eyes DOC, you can't always be the sharpest pencil in the pack. Your understanding of this subject is only enough to get you in over your head. All of the twisting and spinning will not change the reality. You may want to consider the difference between OPINION and FACT before entering another debate like this.
http:///forum/post/2611444
YES Exactly how does a standpipe get 100% blocked anyways? Keep stuff out of the standpipe area and IT CANT CAUSE A BLOCKAGE. Clean 'em periodically and flow will not be inhibited.[/b]
Jaw dropping... You still don't understand. This entire exchange has been a waste becuase you can't see past your own malformed opinions. For every point that is brought up you twist it a bit and add an example or tangent to fit your opinion. Instead of winning on the merits of your position, you change the subject.
Prevention is in the cure? Good grief.
Yes, DOC, you answer fact with opinion. You argue by spinning like a politician, it is intellectually dishonest and shows your utter lack of understanding. I guess if you can't win an arguement, twist the topic so that it appears you did? Counter with useless points to make it appear like you have have a greater knowledge?
Do I have to quote your initial posts in this thread to remind you we are talking about YOUR COMMENTS and NOT YOUR FISH TANK?
As for the Herbie overflow and my understanding of how it works. Get a grip, go read the original thread. I explained (and defended) his design to the uninformed. That included explaining the MUST HAVE 2nd standpipe for EMERGENCY OVERFLOW. I happened to improve upon the design to fit my needs and those of others. My setup handles more flow and does so safely and silently with less chance of it falling out of adjustment. It has 3 seperate safety features that allow it to work in a fail-safe manner. There are several key differences, but the adjustment bandwidth and safety are the ones that stand out.
Your entire post is full of twisted nonsense and I just don't have the energy to counter every point AGAIN. You do not appear to be able to stay on the actual topic and continue to fold in useless arguements. Notice, I keep saying the same thing but your counters keep evolving and becoming more disconnected to the actual subject? You actually now brought up the "how much flow does vinnie really need". Good grief, lets fold that in too. What is the PROPER flow rate through a sump? What is wasteful and what is useful?
NO Doc, they are not"just submerged dursos". To even make that arguement shows once again that you are utterly clueless with regard to the function, failure modes and operating parameters of these overflows (any of them).
A durso works by allowing AIR to enter the standpipe. Depending on the flow, the drop (negative head) and the diameter of the pipe, the air will either be noisy or quiet. More air means less overall flow, less air means more flow but the a greater chance of turbulance because the air can start to form pockets in the pipe. You see Doc, the Durso (or Stockman) works somewhere between laminar open channel flow and laminar full siphon, usually a turbulant partial siphon. They are VERY prone to changes in barometric pressure, water parameters, slime coats and other factors. For ANY given DURSO or STOCKMAN the "quiet" mode of operation is function of the air/water ratio as it relates to the length and diamter of the standpipe. I suppose you will want to argue about them (the durso and stockmans also).
So yes DOC, Stockmans and Durso can be quiet. The entire reason that HERBIE, MYSELF and others designed overflows was because they ARE TOO DEPENDENT ON TOO MANY VARIALES. At high flow rates or over long drops they can be very problematic.
To your next irrelevant comment: Nobody said that Vinni had to run 3000 GPH. Why do people like you INSIST on debating by confusing the topic with stuff like this. Who gives a damn what size return pump Vinni plans on using. You made Uninfomred comments in the opening of this thread and continue to flounder around trying to justify them. This design (and the Herbie design) are not dependent on a high flow system. Furthermore they can be SCALED DOWN to fit low flow systems. One could easily use 1/2" or 3/4" standpipes on a low flow system.
Why not increase the drain size and forgio the open channel pipe? Because the OPEN CHANNEL pipe is what provides the VERY WIDE operating bandwidth. That has been covered here, my thread and on my website. This is one of the key benefits compared to the HERBIE setup. Again DOC, if you took your foot out of your mouth long enough to breath, you would see the difference.
Open your eyes DOC, you can't always be the sharpest pencil in the pack. Your understanding of this subject is only enough to get you in over your head. All of the twisting and spinning will not change the reality. You may want to consider the difference between OPINION and FACT before entering another debate like this.