Abortion...So here's your thread

[t316]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
LOL, which time?
I couldn't calm her down enough to even say, but I agree w/ Tizzo's last statement...
"Abortion. For me, I think it would be a bad choice. Therefore I will not have one."
As for the "when life begins" question, you will probably have just as much diversity here as we see already. But, IMHO...conception. Personally, I don't believe in abortion for any reason, other than, the life/health of the mother is in danger. Even here, most don't even consider this abortion, but rather "loosing a child". But it is what it is. I'm not a major advocate or extremist either way, but this is how I believe. And I totally understand the beliefs regarding cases of r ape, i ncest, etc., but not convinced abortion is the best move here, especially since there are thousands of couples out there who would do anything to adopt & provide love for this child. And, I have met way too many great, productive people in this world, who were one of these choices one time, some of them handicap.

 

[peef]

So um nobody that seems to have ever been in this situation has spoken up yet so I think I will
1. I was adopted when I was first able to leave the hospital. My mother was 16 years old and had a planned pregnancy with my father. He was celebrating and was in a car wreck where a passenger was killed and he was given 9 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter. When my mother gave me up it was harder than anyone can ever imagine (unless you have done this don't even TRY to pretend you know how it feels). She could not even look at a man without crying for 3 years or so. She gave me up for adoption because she couldn't handle the financial reponsibilities for a child. She didn't want me to be in a situation where it was a "hmm if I eat baby can't, and if baby eats I can't" situation. So if she had an abortion I would never have come into existance.
2. My wife and I are newly weds about 8 months ago we found out she was pregnant. We are still in school. Rent housing, have loans, want to live our lives together and travel and be young still. We are only mid twenties. So we had an abortion. Now as someone who was adopted I feel this was 100% the correct choice for us. That child would have been loved but it would have put such an incredibly huge damper on our lives at the moment that we would not be able to provide the things for our child that we would like to in the future. And my child was not going to be a salvation army kid, (sorry if that offends anyone that was not my intent at all). Now if you are mad at me for doing this, honestly you have no right to be. You do not know me or my wife otherwise you would know this was the best choice. We had more people here comfort us and take care of during this than I could ever imagine. If you argue the "a life is a life" thing well then I guess all men should stop "pulling the proverbial pork" because that is a living thing also going on the carpet or a tissue.
The only reason people are put in jail for animal things is when they torture or are inhumanly cruel to them. Thousands of animals are killed everyday, by bullets to the head, shots in the neck, and others, just to help them not hurt. Who ever said that about animals if you even comparing this to animal rights when your kid has a 15 year old dog suffering a long death from heart failure or something else are you going to let it die slow and painful or take it to the vet to be put to sleep to "help"??????? It is the same thing...
PS. I do agree with the 2 day abortion waiting period to let women decide if this is really what they want.

 

[t316]

I'm not "mad" at you. I can't lie, and say that I agree with your decision, but you did nothing illegal, I wasn't in your shoes, so I can't be mad at you.

 

[redwinger]

Against it

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
interesting moral dilemmas, but it doesn't address the real question of when life begins.
That said, it's a straw man argument. The vast majority of abortions in the USA are not the result of medical neccessity or r ape.
As for the rest of your post; It terrifies me. The SS under Hitler's regime made similar arguments when they were shipping hundreds of thousands of handicapped people to the death camps.
I know that wasn't your intention, but you have to look at the natural conclusion to your position. Can handicapped people not live productive lives? Should all physical and mentally handicapped fetuses be aborted?
I respect your opinion, but it is wrong. Handicapped people can live happy and productive lives.

Sorry I believe there is a misunderstanding here. I am not saying that hanicapped people by anymeans should be done away with or cannot lead productive lives and or be happy. I truley believe they can... And I understand that the question has evolved to be when does life begin. My explaination was to point out the fact that its my belief that if my wife was pregnant and there were forseen severe birth defects or handicapps as I described above. I would not be in favor of letting the pregnancy go on any longer. I believe as much in quality of life as I do in life itself. And IMO having the right to stop somthing (a mistake) if you will, at the time it is found is a womans right. Now the question when does that make eliminating a mistake or taking a life? I cannot answer that question... nor have I ever been faced with a difficult decision as I have described above. But that is how I feel.

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by peef
If you argue the "a life is a life" thing well then I guess all men should stop "pulling the proverbial pork"

OH HELL NO !!!!

Sorry I thought we needed a little humorus break here.

 

[fishycpa]

Originally Posted by peef
That child would have been loved but it would have put such an incredibly huge damper on our lives at the moment that we would not be able to provide the things for our child that we would like to in the future. And my child was not going to be a salvation army kid
As a person with a family member who can't have children, and as a human, I find having an abortion b/c you can't buy it name brand clothes or becuase it is inconvient, is so highly offensive I am almost sick on my stomach.

 

[jtrzerocool]

i belive that until you are in the situation you really dont know what you belive...my fience and i were always against abortion until the situation came up in our life for me to actually make the decision...we am in no way finantally(sp) stable enough to have a child...we were in very much the same situation as peef and his wife...and please dont bash on me for sharing my experiance...you dont know us and you really dont know what our situation is...
again i dont think that you can truly make the decision until you are actually forced to make it...

 

[jonthefishguy]

Originally Posted by fishyCPA
As a person with a family member who can't have children, and as a human, I find having an abortion b/c you can't buy it name brand clothes or becuase it is inconvient, is so highly offensive I am almost sick on my stomach.
Take it as you will but your not in his shoes and to be offended and sick to your stomach by someone elses action and reason for doing something that didnt effect you shows lack of respect for others choices. Regardless of whether you are a person closely related to someone who cannot bear children. That just makes you bias.

 

[jtrzerocool]

Originally Posted by fishyCPA
As a person with a family member who can't have children, and as a human, I find having an abortion b/c you can't buy it name brand clothes or becuase it is inconvient, is so highly offensive I am almost sick on my stomach.
please understand that you are not the only one with a family member whom cant have children...i have several of them...but there is alternatives for them...my mother was one of thoes alternatives and was a seragant(sp) mother for one of my family members who couldnt have a child...not to mention adoption...

 

[fishycpa]

The point I was making is that it is selfish to abort a baby b/c it is inconvenient when there are others who can't have one at all.

 

[saltn00b]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I respect your opinion, but it is wrong. Handicapped people can live happy and productive lives.
wow. i wouldnt call that respect lol - unless you are handycapped i dont think you are truly qualified to answer that question. then again, at what point is the line crossed for "handycapped" ? how many people have the temp tag hanging from their rear view to get good parking? there are many different types of handycaps and some are very oppressive and lead to short, sad, stereotyped and depressed lives, that greatly affect everyone around them as well.
you compared his condemning of all handycapped feti (did he say that or did you put words in his mouth? i missed it) to the Nazi regime, but what about the removal of choice? the Government is already too entrenched in the day to day lives of Americans and is always removing more and more freedoms, because some people think they know what is best for the rest of us, or they use laws (and the passing of them ) as a tool to win the hearts of voters.
While I agree that its a matter of science as to when a new life has begun, and i agree with the current rules about it not being allowed the 2nd trimester, to outlaw everything else would be turning a blind eye to the real world. Suppose that some laws are passed in a compromising direction of pro-choice, where it would be illegal if you "just got knocked up", but legal if the mother to be was raped or some other horrible consequence. Unfortunately, tt is a LOT harder to get things done sifting through Legal red tape as opposed to getting it done when you need it and dealing with some people squinting their eyes at you. Time is another factor. Every day something new develops on a fetus and every second counts. what happens to the people that need to prove that they were raped? was it date ----? now they need proof and good lawyers and a lot of money? Then what if the lawyers are busy or on vacation for the holidays? the baby doesnt stop and wait for the court system. why stop there? what about miscarriages? the woman is technically killing the fetus at that point, perhaps we should lock all of these offenders up as well? where does it stop? when do we become personally responsible for ourselves and stop handing over control and morality to some men in black suits government?
In my own personal case, i had a girlfriend that had several forms of cancer concurrently. her uterus was completely nuked from a radiation capsule therapy. the Dr's said that there is absolutely no way she could become pregnant. low and behold a few month later, she was positive. The Docs in disbelief, said that all options are bad for her. she was too weak from the fighting and the therapies to even put her body through the stress of it all, but it was also a health risk for her to have it done. The body would 95% chance miscarry on it's own because the baby would 95% chance be seriously deformed the body would know something is wrong. If she miscarried, that would have been the best option for it is the easiest on the body. (her ears must have been burning because she called me as i typed this) well we decided to wait it out, and she didnt miscarry, so we then had to bite the bullet on the more expensive 2nd trimester abortion. what are the morals for stopping one doomed existance before it starts, in order to save another doomed existance?
Then there is my ex-roommate. Staunch republican, and staunch pro-lifer. got his girlfriend pregnant. got an abortion. the whole time i was in disbelief. i would ask "so you are pro life right?"
"yup"
"and you are getting an abortion?"
"yea, i feel terrible about it, but it's really for the best"
"so then... arent you happy you are allowed to have this option?"
"no , i am pro life."
"..."
"it sucks, people should not be allowed to have them."
"people? what people? you are the perfect example. you are having one"
"yea but i need it, i just couldnt handle it right now, i dont have the money, my parents would freak because we are not married, you know. but its for everyone else."
"you are a walking hypocrisy."
..... weeks after the abortion...
"so, are you still pro-life?"
"absolutely, people should not be allowed to do it, its murder."

 

[jonthefishguy]

Originally Posted by fishyCPA
The point I was making is that it is selfish to abort a baby b/c it is inconvenient when there are others who can't have one at all.

Inconvenient is such a blurred word. Most women are not out having abortions because they want to fit into a dress by the weekend or they have a date and dont want to look prego. That would be inconvenient. For those that cant have children, they are not out of the loop. True they may not have one of their own flesh and blood without medical intervention, but they can still have children. Adoption is one, serigat (sp) is another, Fostercare, and many other ways. It is selfish to expect others to make a decision that you would make based on who you know that cant have children.

 

[jtrzerocool]

Originally Posted by fishyCPA
The point I was making is that it is selfish to abort a baby b/c it is inconvenient when there are others who can't have one at all.
while it may be selfish in your opinion...i am not be able to provide the necessary things for a child(ie. formula, clothes, diapers)...

 

[fishycpa]

Then let someone adopt, don't punish a baby b/c you don't have the money. Or take every precaution to not have one.

 

[jtrzerocool]

Originally Posted by fishyCPA
Then let someone adopt, don't punish a baby b/c you don't have the money. Or take every precaution to not have one.
like i said before...i dont think that someone can make a true decision until they are in the situation to make the decision...im my situation it was easier and more reasonable to go through the abortion...you dont know me or my situation...

 

[jonthefishguy]

Our adoption services in general are soo far off from being run correctly that some actually neglect the children because the people are there to just get a paycheck. It is reported that they first get the job with the best intensions however over time, they become desensitized by the overwhelming responsibilities that are brought to them each and everyday and yet the assistance from others to help is not given because of either not enough funding to support other care givers or they just become lax and see the children as just another job to take care of. While you offer adoption as an answer, I would like to point out that there are MANY MANY and TOO MANY children in orphanages and seem to stay there till they are old enough to no longer be a ward of the state. Adding another child instead of aborting, simply adds to the already over worked and underpaid staff that eventually dont care...

 

[teresaq]

Originally Posted by jtrzerocool
please understand that you are not the only one with a family member whom cant have children...i have several of them...but there is alternatives for them...my mother was one of thoes alternatives and was a seragant(sp) mother for one of my family members who couldnt have a child...not to mention adoption...
How can there be adoption if everyone has an abortion

 

[jtrzerocool]

Originally Posted by TeresaQ
How can there be adoption if everyone has an abortion
because not everyone has abortions...

 

[teresaq]

Originally Posted by jonthefishguy
Our adoption services in general are soo far off from being run correctly that some actually neglect the children because the people are there to just get a paycheck. It is reported that they first get the job with the best intensions however over time, they become desensitized by the overwhelming responsibilities that are brought to them each and everyday and yet the assistance from others to help is not given because of either not enough funding to support other care givers or they just become lax and see the children as just another job to take care of. While you offer adoption as an answer, I would like to point out that there are MANY MANY and TOO MANY children in orphanages and seem to stay there till they are old enough to no longer be a ward of the state. Adding another child instead of aborting, simply adds to the already over worked and underpaid staff that eventually dont care...
I am sorry to say you know nothing about the adoption community. I know of thousands of waiting parents. there arent as many children aval in foster care as you think, and most infants that are given up go directly into waiting families homes, they are not part of the foster system. The united states does not have orphanges, and the ones over seas have waiting list that take yrs to get through. The wait time in china right now is almost 3 yrs. many other countries have closed thier programs, so parents must wait.