ADVICE Please (Advanced aquarists only)

emporer

Member
2 hours ago my annularis angel was fine grazing the rocks. And now 2 hours later of course it is dead. The tank inhabbitants are, lunare wrasse, lion, miniatus grouper,urchin, curly q anenomes. 2 days ago the water perameters are perfect. now the ammonia jumped to .50 . I think this is because the fish just died... and i now checked.
Mayby my ammonia did spike over the 2 days.. but if not... can it have been stung to death by the anenome or lion. Or can the grouper have tried to eat it?
 

misty7850

Member
Its too bad that you state (Advanced aquarists only)
Some of the not so advanced aquarist may have some good input also.. As they might have experienced the same thing that your going through and have already asked and received answers for the same question.
How far advanced does one have to be to answer this question ?

Since I've not had experience with Angels, I don't have any input for you, other than to say, if you had not have put that in your question, you may have gotten a reply before now.
The advanced aquarists are going to want to know more specific questions, such as..
what are your water parametors. (what is perfect ?), post specifics.. temp, ph, ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, kh/alk, sg/salinity, etc.. .
How often do you do water changes ?
How big is your tank ?
How long have you had this fish ?
how did you acclimate it ?
how long have you had your other critters ?
What type of lighting ?, etc...
Don't get me wrong. I love hearing the opinions of the more advanced aquarists, (especially the moderators) and hope every time I post a question, someone with alot of experience will jump on board and answer it, but I also appreciate answers even from someone with less experience than I, cause I know they might have run accross the same problem, or be more experienced in an area I am not familiar with..
Just putting in my lill ole non-advanced opinion :jumping:
 

emporer

Member
All those ?'s have no relation to what happened to me today. If anything was rescently introduced i would have stated that. Perfect is perfect. Cant get more specific. Since i didnt state anything out of the ordinay... Thats the kind of feedback i expect. This isnt a stress related issue if everything was fine 2 hours before,,...which cocludes that all of those questions you asked are irrelivent, and thats exactly what i meant by ADVANCED. I would thank you if i felt you tried to help at all... but it seems you got affended and catorgorized me from the getgo.
 

carshark

Active Member
in my non expert opinion, your ammonia in order to jump that quickly in two days is a result of something breaking down. whether it be the dead fish, or your tests arent reading it correctly. my non advanced opinon would be to do a sizeable water change and test the water before and a day after. also compare your tests with someone elses, ie your LFS. see if your tests are the problem. also in my non advanced opinion if the angel did happen to die from the venom of the lionfish you would see signs of it on his body, there would be a centralized area of it on his body. as far as the grouper, if the angel would possibly be able to fit in his mouth why do you have the two? groupers are known to eat anything they can fit in their mouth. however I dont think unless he actually ate him that would be the problem.. your fish also could have died from a lot of things, it could have already been on its way out. and yes your water parameters are that important, regardless if you say perfect or not, you should post them so with deductive reasoning all avenues can be exhausted. what kind of chemicals have you added lately? have you had any issues with ph lately? how is your PH now? have you had any problems with calcium etc etc.. how long have you had the angel, and when was the last time you did a water change and checked your levels before this ammonia spike? and keeping in mind that, that angel needs to be in a tank bigger than a 125, so unless it was a full size adult, there is no way you should have an ammonia spike that big in a tank that size in that minimal amount of time, if you water was "perfect" beforehand.
and if it was a full size adult, how big is your grouper?
we are all just trying to help here, no need to get so defensive and shoot down someone who was being very reasonable in the suggestions... how do you expect someone to help you?
 

aelene

Member
Originally Posted by Emporer
Perfect is perfect. Cant get more specific. Since i didnt state anything out of the ordinay... Thats the kind of feedback i expect. This isnt a stress related issue if everything was fine 2 hours before,,...which cocludes that all of those questions you asked are irrelivent, and thats exactly what i meant by ADVANCED.
Any "advanced" person here is going to ask you all the same things that Misty did above. "PERFECT" tells them nothing and you can't troubleshoot a problem when you have no information. They don't live in your house, nor in your tank so they can't tell you why a fish died without knowing the history of your setup. Also, stress can be going on without it being apparent to you, so you may think everything is fine.. but without having detailed information on what's been going on, no "expert" is going to be able to give you a plausible theory. And no offense, but obviously not everything is "fine" the way you say it is, or else you wouldn't have a dead fish on your hands.
P.S. I don't think your ammonia would spike to .50 if you pulled a dead fish out immediately after dying, but hey.. what do I know
 

lion_crazz

Active Member
In all honesty, anything could have happened but it is questions asked, whether from an "advanced" or "novice" aquarist, that really focus the problem down to the root. That was kinda rude for you to post that because everyone on this website is here to help each other. Everyone has a little bit to offer everyone else. With a title like that, I am sure a lot of people would not even want to click that thread, even though it is something that they could have helped you with. I don't think you need to have "advanced" experience to help someone realize a stupid mistake when they have one. All of the questions misty asked (with the exception of the lighting) were all good ones. I work at a fish store and I deal with so many people that tell me they have "perfect" water conditions. Do you know how many that actually do? Very little. I don't even have "perfect" water conditions because I have a small trace of nitrate in my tank. However, though that is not harmful, it is not "perfect". Now, I want to ask you the same questions, and since you responded so rudely to misty, I will tell you why I am asking each question.
What are your water levels? I ask this because many people do not realize that what they have as far as say a specific gravity is not very good. Some people do not realize that keeping a tank at a pH of 7.8 is not good. Also, many people do not even test for alkalinity, so this is a very important question because if you do not know that your alk is in an ideal state, your tank's pH could be fluctuating drastically in 2 hours and you would have no clue whatsoever. None of us know you, so we cannot just rule that out of the equation. We do not know if you are advanced or not, and we can't just go off the fact that you have an angel fish. Anyone can buy an angelfish, so that is not an indication that you are "advanced" If NM, or Bang Guy, or one of the other moderators on this website had a problem and posted it, no one would ask such a question because we know they are "advanced" as you like to call it, and they will have already checked, rechecked, and then had someone else check their levels just to make sure everything is ideal.
How long have you had the fish? Since you did not state this in the original post, in order to help you, it would be quite beneficial to know how long the fish has been in the tank. For instance, if it was just recently added, it might have died to poor acclimation or something reacting negatively to it, such as the lion stinging it, running into the anemone, or the wrasse or grouper having a fight with it.
The next question of how you acclimated the fish would be important only if you just got the fish. If you did not just get the fish, this would have no releveance to the discussion of your problem.
What size is the tank? The size of the tank would be important with an angelfish because they need a large tank and if they do not have a large tank to roam in, they often become stressed out and may die for no reason other than just lack of space to move. For all we know, you could have all these fish in a 55 gallon. You did not fill out your profile, so we do not really know what size your tank is. We cannot just assume everything in your tank is in a perfect state because in actuality, very few aquarists have a "perfect" tank. If you had a "perfect" tank, you would not be losing fish.
Now, instead of getting angry that everyone seemed to be against you for the "advanced" comment, it would be in your and our best interest not to get mad and fight about it because then you get no where. We all want to help you and I would assume that you could use all the aid you can get. I stated my advice on the issue, and you answering these simple questions would just give all of us a little more insight on your fish and your problem. There's no reason to get mad at anyone. There is no problem here, so there is no need to turn it into one.
 

misty7850

Member
Originally Posted by Emporer
All those ?'s have no relation to what happened to me today. If anything was rescently introduced i would have stated that. Perfect is perfect. Cant get more specific. Since i didnt state anything out of the ordinay... Thats the kind of feedback i expect. This isnt a stress related issue if everything was fine 2 hours before,,...which cocludes that all of those questions you asked are irrelivent, and thats exactly what i meant by ADVANCED. I would thank you if i felt you tried to help at all... but it seems you got affended and catorgorized me from the getgo.

Emporer, Maybe I came off being rude to you with my post, If so please accept my most humble apologies. It is not in my nature to deliberatly be rude. I actually didn't get offended by your post. The point I was trying to get accross was, many aqaurist have excellent feedback. The way you post your titles may limit some excellent input from the not so advanced, as some will not even take the time to read the post. Thanks everyone for helping explain that my post wasn't such a stupid one after all. With the exception of the question on the lights.. your right lion-crazz.. that question was probably not needed.
Aqain if I come accross being rude, it wasn't my intention.
 

darth tang

Active Member
What determines an advanced aquarist?
I have often found many that post questions like these always neglect to give the basics about their tank. Your tank basics can tell us a lot as previously pointed out. not to mention if you have a clean up crew and what filtration.
For a fish to be "fine" and then dead in two hours does not bode well.
The Lionfish I suppose could have feasibly killed it with a sting but I have never experienced nor heard of this as an occurance. Their quills" are primarily defensive in nature.
If the fish ran into the anemone, sure it could have got stung, but to be killed by it would have been difficult as it would have had to repeatedly run into the anemone. Which the fish isn't likely to do.
How long have you had the fish is a VERY relative question, not to mention how big is it. The fish could be old for all I know.
You give us nothing to go on, refuse to answer the questions posed to you, and still want answers. Impossible.
I took a crap in my toilet, it won't flush. Only experienced toilet flushers answer. Tell me why.
 

jmick

Active Member
If you want advice from a truly advanced aquarist then ask Fenner on his site and make sure you provide him with more details. Myself, and most of the people that post here are not advanced. However, We try to help where we have knowledge and it’s been my experience that most of the replies are pretty good.
 
What were your test results BEFORE the fish died? Your perfect and my perfect could be 2 differnet readings. How steady are your tests results? Do they flucuate (sp)? If so how much? What do you feed? Has the fish been eating? Also, have you added any live stock? Anything, no matter how trivial it seems.
18 years in this hobby, with 3 tanks running at the house, and STILL do not consider myself advanced)
 

emporer

Member
Im going to drop it now... I played it by the books, something happened all of a sudden and none of it had anything to do with long term parameters, and i knew this. I troubleshot before i even posted anything, by setting up for a water change, looking for dead inhabitants, and tried another test kit. I just tried to skip the rookie questions, But i know they always asked so Nex time ill state it like:
125 gallon, strip lights, wet dry system, 600 gph return, 2 375 gph powerheads inside, good skimmer, good UV, 75 lbs of lr, 150 lbs of ls, tank is running over a year, i have 4 good sized fish all compatible with one another, added an anenome a few weeks ago. all my fish are eating fine, ph 8.3, nitrate 0, nitrite 0, salinity 1.023, temp 79, no stray voltage
nothing else dead in tank, did a water change 3 days ago and water parameter were the same except ammonia was 0 at that time. I was feeding everything silversides. except angel formula for annularis. end of changing stage. The fish was grazing the rockwork 2 hours ago.. doing exactly what it has been doing the past 6 months. WHY DID IT SUDDENLY DIE... I DONT KNOW WHY I STATE THAT EVERYTHING BOOKWISE IS FINE IN MY TANK AND YOU STLL NEEDED TO KNOW. I STATED SOMETHING CRAZY HAPPENED..ALL THAT STUFF WAS UNECESSAY IF YOU TAKE IT FROM A FELLOW HOBBIEST THAT KNOWSWHAT HES DOING WHEN HE SAID PERFECT PARAMETERS
 

carshark

Active Member
Oh I see they were all rookie questions, well Mr. Expert what do you need us little pawns for? sounds like you are the expert here, maybe us "underexperienced" people here could learn a thing or two.
prick
 

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by carshark
Oh I see they were all rookie questions, well Mr. Expert what do you need us little pawns for? sounds like you are the expert here, maybe us "underexperienced" people here could learn a thing or two.
prick

LMAO
 

emporer

Member
I am not claiming i am an expert , But there is an ethics involved when troubleshooting a tank. The first are the annitial and (OBVIOUS) specks. I covered all of that myself and stated it also.. i was just looking for A CRAZY guess... because something crazy happened.
 
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