Algae Scrubbers

ibew41

Active Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3225283
They are asking about that on another site right now.
when I saw this I want to a couple of other boards and he is getting nailed be mods asking what happened to free and angry about being used to advertise his junk .wonder if he needs a patent or infringing on others
 

reefkprz

Active Member
too late to worry about patent he already put the design specs on a free domain. all information here is free, if not in violation of a prior copywright. so unless he pantented his design before he posted it anyone can manufacture that same device with no worries because it was made public before patent.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
SantaMonica, it would be helpful if you could address some of the concerns raised here. We are aware that you've been banned from another site and that you have become known for posting info-topics in various forums, without actually participating in forum discussions.
However, so far, there's been no attempt to sell anything here. SM posted all the diy info, so if he's trying to sell, he's not a very good salesman.
 

santamonica

Member
Well I answered the two questions, above.
I did want to find out if there were sponsor/vendor forums here. I did not see any.
 

wangotango

Active Member
I don't have a problem with him posting an idea (it isn't radically different than "tumbling" Chaeto). What I have a problem is with the lack of information to back up his claims. Don't quote articles written by other people that don't discuss scrubbers and try to related their information to your own. The article that was quoted was by Eric Borneman and discussed polyp size in relation to size of food/particulate that a coral could consume. To quote that and say "yeah, scrubbers produce food" isn't a great connection.
Just about every other DIY thread has some sort of results posted. If it's LED lighting then there's PAR measurements. If it's a DIYed skimmer, then measurements of how much air is being sucked in and how much scum is being produced daily, etc. I havn't seen a chart with various parameters and how they were reduced following the addition of an ATS. How many pods are produced by an ATS as opposed to a ball of Chaeto? If you're trying to push an idea, you need to have something to back it up with other than "it just does everything fantastically." Not saying it doesn't work, but how well does it?
I also want to know what "pipe design" you were implying...
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/3226121
Well I answered the two questions, above.
I did want to find out if there were sponsor/vendor forums here. I did not see any.
No we never had vendor forums, and discontinued selling/trading forums.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
The idea in and of itself works to some extent. I tried it and saw some improvement to my tank. I had a difficult time running chaeto due to size constraints.
 

ibew41

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3226062
SantaMonica, it would be helpful if you could address some of the concerns raised here. We are aware that you've been banned from another site and that you have become known for posting info-topics in various forums, without actually participating in forum discussions.
However, so far, there's been no attempt to sell anything here. SM posted all the diy info, so if he's trying to sell, he's not a very good salesman.

Well, I'm making them now, per order. I probably should not post prices here, until I am a vendor. Trying to figure out if there are vendors here.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
for those of you who are beating him up about this did you read the other thread? I mean like all 27 pages of it? He's toting an idea, gave all of the plans from cheap to elaborate on how to DIY, posted about a million graphics and suggestions on successes with the general design idea. gives LOADS of info on why it works and how it works. The only thing I saw that was actually for sale that he posted was something about a screen for 4 bucks if you wanted one pre loaded with algea, not even his, and not something this site sells. To top it all off quite a few posters here have tried is product and had success with it and posted in that thread with pictures and what was going on with thier tanks. I for one find it really interesting and kudos to him for bringing it in front of so many people as a free idea so that we may try it ourselves. IMO his type of posts offer more to these forums than most.
I don't know the guy, havnt even posted on the thread, just saying, seems like a really cool thing hes doing as an advancement in our hobby.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
Originally Posted by WangoTango
http:///forum/post/3226369
I don't have a problem with him posting an idea (it isn't radically different than "tumbling" Chaeto). What I have a problem is with the lack of information to back up his claims. Don't quote articles written by other people that don't discuss scrubbers and try to related their information to your own. The article that was quoted was by Eric Borneman and discussed polyp size in relation to size of food/particulate that a coral could consume. To quote that and say "yeah, scrubbers produce food" isn't a great connection.
Just about every other DIY thread has some sort of results posted. If it's LED lighting then there's PAR measurements. If it's a DIYed skimmer, then measurements of how much air is being sucked in and how much scum is being produced daily, etc. I havn't seen a chart with various parameters and how they were reduced following the addition of an ATS. How many pods are produced by an ATS as opposed to a ball of Chaeto? If you're trying to push an idea, you need to have something to back it up with other than "it just does everything fantastically." Not saying it doesn't work, but how well does it?
I also want to know what "pipe design" you were implying...
I think this is the reason he and others in the last thread wanted a new tread and were asking for it. Te old one was soooooo long that most of you probably didnt read it all and in fact he does post lots of success stories written by fellow posters here and on other forums. complete with time frames for how long it took for nitrates to go from initial amount to current amount, some posted about what was happening in thier tanks at certain points of the process.
Ive only been in this hobby for about 6 months, but i wouldnt be surprised if similar questions were raised wen the first protien skimmer was made. I believe the objections are coming from folks who like thier skimmer and are having good luck with their current process so why change.
 

aquaknight

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jstdv8
http:///forum/post/3228202
I think this is the reason he and others in the last thread wanted a new tread and were asking for it. Te old one was soooooo long that most of you probably didnt read it all and in fact he does post lots of success stories written by fellow posters here and on other forums. complete with time frames for how long it took for nitrates to go from initial amount to current amount, some posted about what was happening in thier tanks at certain points of the process.
Ive only been in this hobby for about 6 months, but i wouldnt be surprised if similar questions were raised wen the first protien skimmer was made. I believe the objections are coming from folks who like thier skimmer and are having good luck with their current process so why change.
Keep in mind I had success with my ATS on my 125gal, and am currently using one on my 90gal reef with success, but turf scrubbers are far from anything new. They probably pre-date skimmers, at least pump powered skimmers. Santamonica's methods are new.
As far as issues on both
sides, I think specific issues like Wango mentioned, will go a looong way, instead of board accusations.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
So, back to the original purpose of this thread, SM I have a question. I'm wanting to start one of these using the overflow from the tank with valves splitting off one for the scrubber and one for the sump like you have pictured in the thread. The part I dont really understand is how i figure what size screen to use. You gave dimmensions for GPH but im not sure how to calculate that if im splitting the water unevenly between the sump and the scrubber.
Heck to be honest i dont even know what size overflow i have LOL I got it with te tank and just hooked it up with everything else that came with the tank. Is it crucial to have the correct screen size rigt to te number or do I just have to be close? and is taller better than wider or vs vs?
Id also like to double check that the bulbs i should get are 5700k?
Also, you mention several times about kniting fabric I think it was, If I go into a fabric store are they going to know exactly what this stuff is or does it have another name? and is this still the screen of choice in your opinion?
Thanks a bunch, Im looking forward to posting my pics and perameters wita timeline when I get this up and running
 

santamonica

Member
Quick guideline:
0.5 actual (not equivalent) fluorescent watts per gallon MINIMUM.
1.0 actual (not equivalent) fluorescent watts per gallon for HIGH filtering.
1.0 square inches of screen per gallon, with bulbs on BOTH sides. (10 x 10 = 100 square inches = 100 gal)
2.0 square inches of screen per gallon, if ONE sided.
18 hours of lights ON, and 6 hours of lights OFF, each day.
Flow is 24 hours, and is 35 gph per inch of width of screen, EVEN IF one sided.
Very rough screen made of roughed-up-like-a-cactus plastic canvas.
Clean algae off of screen every SEVEN (7) days NO MATTER WHAT.
Your screen width, however, is limited by the gph of your overflow:
Screen Width

[hr]
Gallons Per Hour (GPH)
1" 35
2" 70
3" 105
4" 140
5" 175
6" 210
7" 245
8" 280
9" 315
10" 350
11" 385
12" 420
13" 455
14" 490
15" 525
16" 560
17" 595
18" 630
19" 665
20" 700
The maximum flow you'll get to the screen will be what's going through your overflow now. This is easy to figure out by counting how many seconds it takes your overflow to fill a one-gallon jug:
60 seconds = 60 gph
30 seconds = 120 gph
15 seconds = 240 gph
10 seconds = 360 gph
8 seconds = 450 gph
5 seconds = 720 gph
Take this gph number that you end up with, and divide by 35, to get the number of inches wide the screen should be. For example, if your overflow was 240 gph, then divide this by 35 to get 6.8 (or just say 7) inches. So your screen should be 7 inches wide.
How tall should the screen it be? That is determined by how much screen area you need, which is determined by how many gallons you have. Try to get one square inch of screen (lit both sides) for every gallon. If lit on only one side, double the screen area.
Most likely, you will need/use all your overflow, and you won't need to split it. The wider the screen, the better, because it flows more and therefore filters more per hour.
Bulbs should be 3000K or near.
Plastic canvas can be found in any craft/knitting store, and online. Rough it up like this:
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
couple more questions, should I use more than one sheet back to back so when i clean one side the other side stays put? or is that a bad idea?
Also, I noticed that lots of people seem to be using the curly bulbs that are 23 watts even with 2 of them that would only be 46 watts, is that not really enough for me? i have a 90 gallon with a sump that probbaly has about another 25 gallons in it. So Id need 115 watts or so, that would require alot of bulbs about 65 watts per side. do you have any suggestions on the bulbs i should be looking for? i went to HD today and almost none of the bulbs there have K ratings on them. bulbs seem to be the most expensive part of this deal so i dont want to mess them up by getting the wrong ones. I did get the two clip on reflectors so im about ready to do some plumbing.
Also, i guess im looking at making a shield for both sides that doubles as a splash guard and a light shade so the light doesnt reach the areas where the water actually comes out of the tube so that it wont get clogged up. Is there any downside to doing this? And if i went this way could i go wit the fabric looped around the water tube or how do you reccomend fastening it? i was also considering gluing in two pieces of plastic inside the water tube leaving a gap in the middle and then attach a piece to the top of the screen tat would span the gap between the two inserts so that i could just slide the screen in and out by taing te end cap off. any ideas here?
I tried rereading the old thread again and didnt see what i was looking for with a quick skim over the wording and pictures.
Thanks :)
 

wangotango

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jstdv8
http:///forum/post/3228202
I believe the objections are coming from folks who like thier skimmer and are having good luck with their current process so why change.
There are so many ways to be successful in this hobby. Some people have beautiful tanks without a skimmer or refugium, some don't. Some use Zeovit or strive for an ULN system and have nice displays, and some don't. Some people have a DSB, some don't. Some people use an ATS and have nice displays, some don't use them and have nice displays too. To say that one particular piece of equipment or technique will make you more successful than doing it some other way is bunk (see Eco-aquilizer). There was a post where someone had 200+ppm of nitrate in their tank, and it was suggested that an ATS would be the best thing for the problem. In all honesty, if you truely have 200+ppm of nitrate something is wrong with your husbandry, and no amount of algae is going to fix that. A skimmer, ATS, calcium reactor, etc help make things easier on us, but they aren't an excuse to sit back and assume they're doing all the dirty work.
The point isn't that this is some radical new idea that people are too skeptical to try (all it is is another form of nutrient export). What I think most people here (myself included) have a problem with is the lack of other contributions SM is making other than playing salesman for an idea which technically isn't even his own creation, and not giving any benficial answers to questions that are made other than just repeating his established guidelines.
I still want to know what this "pipe design" that was just recently created is.
 

ibew41

Active Member
The point isn't that this is some radical new idea that people are too skeptical to try (all it is is another form of nutrient export). What I think most people here (myself included) have a problem with is the lack of other contributions SM is making other than playing salesman for an idea which technically isn't even his own creation, and not giving any benficial answers to questions that are made other than just repeating his established guidelines.
I still want to know what this "pipe design" that was just recently created is.quote
this is the only thing I have with a problem with I tried it but did not work to my liking if it works for some people that's great.I do have a problem that he only posts for this item on all the boards even Billy Mays talked about other products.imo he has been doing this from day 1 to eventually sell these as he is now.
 

santamonica

Member
should I use more than one sheet back to back so when i clean one side the other side stays put? or is that a bad idea?
Go with a single layer as your first one.
I noticed that lots of people seem to be using the curly bulbs that are 23 watts even with 2 of them that would only be 46 watts, is that not really enough for me? i have a 90 gallon
46 watts is minimum for a 90. Higher is better, up to 90 watts. Only count the sump if it has living things.
i went to HD today and almost none of the bulbs there have K ratings on them.
"Warm white" is good... is about 3000K. "Full Spectrum" is also good.
im looking at making a shield for both sides that doubles as a splash guard and a light shade
These are good to have, although you might keep it simple first and not use one. But, here is an easy lay-over-the-top version:

For attaching the screen, I'd just use two tie-wraps.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
Originally Posted by WangoTango
http:///forum/post/3228837
There are so many ways to be successful in this hobby. Some people have beautiful tanks without a skimmer or refugium, some don't. Some use Zeovit or strive for an ULN system and have nice displays, and some don't. Some people have a DSB, some don't. Some people use an ATS and have nice displays, some don't use them and have nice displays too. To say that one particular piece of equipment or technique will make you more successful than doing it some other way is bunk (see Eco-aquilizer). There was a post where someone had 200+ppm of nitrate in their tank, and it was suggested that an ATS would be the best thing for the problem. In all honesty, if you truely have 200+ppm of nitrate something is wrong with your husbandry, and no amount of algae is going to fix that. A skimmer, ATS, calcium reactor, etc help make things easier on us, but they aren't an excuse to sit back and assume they're doing all the dirty work.
The point isn't that this is some radical new idea that people are too skeptical to try (all it is is another form of nutrient export). What I think most people here (myself included) have a problem with is the lack of other contributions SM is making other than playing salesman for an idea which technically isn't even his own creation, and not giving any benficial answers to questions that are made other than just repeating his established guidelines.
I still want to know what this "pipe design" that was just recently created is.

I see where you are coming from, I just don't see why. He has indeed answered many questions that were asked, which is why I originally posted that it appeared that most of you probably hadn't read the entire 27 pages (or even well into the 1st page) of the original thread. In this thread alone he has answered quite a few of my own questions not to mention hundreds of others in the old thread. Another poster comented that he only copied and pasted comments. That's not true either, All of the extensive reading may be pasted, but the majority of his posts are typed per post just like this one.
Maybe the pipe design is because the current one has the screen coming out of a pipe and the original design was in a boxed system. I don't know, just speculating.
If someone solved cold fusion and gave the world all of the free power we could ever use without relying on fossil fuels and he posted on forums about how he did it, how it works and how you can use it in your home do you think people would badger him about not posting about oil, or the rain forests or polar bears going extinct? Probably not. So, again I ask why the animosity?
I participated in a number of threads in the new to hobby section only to have an experienced member of this forum call me out for using water from my DT for my QT. I don't come here to argue, I come to learn and try and help new folks in areas I feel I have a grasp on. But after being shot down for trying to help on more than one occasion I have limited my number of posts. It doesn't feel good, and don't blame anyone for not participating after that.
Again I don't know SM, but I applaud him for helping those of us who want help with the idea he's showing. I don't really care if it has been around for hundreds of years or just thought up yesterday.
WT, this is not directed soley at you, so don't take it personal. You just happen to be the last poster in this thread to post something that wasnt all true and I wanted to bring those points to light.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/3229175
Go with a single layer as your first one.
46 watts is minimum for a 90. Higher is better, up to 90 watts. Only count the sump if it has living things.
"Warm white" is good... is about 3000K. "Full Spectrum" is also good.
These are good to have, although you might keep it simple first and not use one. But, here is an easy lay-over-the-top version:

For attaching the screen, I'd just use two tie-wraps.
Don't you have to cut the tie wraps every time you clean though? Or how does it come apart for cleaning?
I was going to notch the pipe all the way from the end with the cap on it in 7" past where the cap seats. So I would remove the cap and slide the screen out of the pipe and take it to the sink. Am I looking to deep at this? Not really concerned with initial work involved in making it nice as long as the maintenance is easy :)
Thanks again for the quick responses.
 
Top