Alkalinity issues..

[btldreef]

We can't quite figure it out, so maybe someone here can.
We use Coralife Salt because our corals always seem to look the healthiest with it, but it doesn't have a buffer in it and our alkalinity always seems to be low and we constantly have to add an alkalinity buffer.
Do you think it would be better to switch salts to one that has the buffer (if so, which one, Tropic Marin did nothing for our tank by the way) or should we just stick with adding the buffer.
I really don't like using chemicals in the tank if I don't have to. Our Ca and Mag are both very high and yet the Alk stays low

Any thoughts?

 

[meowzer]

I'm having the same issues right now.....LOL...I have a thread called reef buffer if you want to peek in on it

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3211122
We can't quite figure it out, so maybe someone here can.
We use Coralife Salt because our corals always seem to look the healthiest with it, but it doesn't have a buffer in it and our alkalinity always seems to be low and we constantly have to add an alkalinity buffer.
Do you think it would be better to switch salts to one that has the buffer (if so, which one, Tropic Marin did nothing for our tank by the way) or should we just stick with adding the buffer.
I really don't like using chemicals in the tank if I don't have to. Our Ca and Mag are both very high and yet the Alk stays low

Any thoughts?

I always had low alkalinity and PH...I was told to add buffer to my RO top off water. I was told that growing coral sucks up the alkalinity from the water, which in turn lowered my PH.
I did and it worked.

 

[stanlalee]

no matter what salt you use you'll have to buffer alkalinity. coralife's alkalinity is fine. alkalinity for us is a measure of carbonates present. buffer= carbonates. adding an alkalinity (carbonate) "buffer" is no different to carbonates than adding calcium is to keep calcium levels steady or mg to keep mg levels steady. Reef tanks just use carbonates more quickly than everything else so you'll be dosing more of it than anything else (for every 7ppm of calcium utilized 1dKH of alkalinity is used. so a drop from 400ppm ca to 393ppm from coral uptake will drop a dKH of 8 to 7. that tells it all right there). daily/frequent dosing will be a way of life and only get worse as the tank matures. if your dosing daily now even switching to a salt with 12dKH isn't going to keep you from being able to dose (it will still constantly fall from whatever you start from). and buffer the tank not the top off water. you have to be precise in the amount of daily evaporation, the amount of uptake from the tank and concentration of carbonates in the top off water to accurately dose via top off water. dose the tank directly via what testing dictates. If you want to put something in the top off water use kalk (which can only be dissolved but so much in water)it will add alkalinity and calcium in proper proportions but ONLY if you are using an ato. you can drip it slowly seperately from the top off water as well. kalk will also help keep pH up. if you arent dosing alot of carbonate buffer you could probably get away with kalk in top off water (with ATO) for a while (but not indefinately as you corals grow) depending on how much evaporation you get.

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by Stanlalee
http:///forum/post/3211163
no matter what salt you use you'll have to buffer alkalinity. coralife's alkalinity is fine. alkalinity for us is a measure of carbonates in the water buffer= carbonates. the term buffer really isn't accurate. you are just adding carbonates the same way you are adding calcium for coral skeletons (which are made of calcium carbonate). Reef tanks use them quickly. daily/frequent dosing will be a way of life and only get worse as the tank matures. and buffer the tank not the top off water. you have to be precise in the amount of daily evaporation, the amount of uptake from the tank and concentration of carbonates in the top off water to accurately dose via top off water. dose the tank directly via what testing dictates. If you want to put something in the top off water use kalk (which can only be dissolved but so much in water) which will add alkalinity and calcium in proper proportions but ONLY if you are using an ato top off. you can drip it slowly seperately from the top off water as well.
What do you use to buffer your alk???

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3211170
What do you use to buffer your alk???
I do 15ml a day of seachem reef carbonate currently. I use IO salt which is a high alkalinity salt but makes little difference. There are 55-75g heavily stocked SPS tanks dosing upwards of 75ml a day just to keep alk up.

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by Stanlalee
http:///forum/post/3211181
I do 15ml a day of seachem reef carbonate currently. I use IO salt which is a high alkalinity salt but makes little difference. There are 55-75g heavily stocked SPS tanks dosing upwards of 75ml a day just to keep alk up.
Just out of curiosity....why don't you use baking soda????

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3211255
Just out of curiosity....why don't you use baking soda????
I'm lazy and dont want to get messy. reef carbonate is already mixed and ready to pour. it cost me $7 a month (15ml x 30 days = 450ml. a 500ml bottle is about $7-8) so convenience is worth the price at this point.

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by Stanlalee
http:///forum/post/3211302
I'm lazy and dont want to get messy. reef carbonate is already mixed and ready to pour. it cost me $7 a month (15ml x 30 days = 450ml. a 500ml bottle is about $7-8) so convenience is worth the price at this point.

I'm lazy too or should I say....value what little spare time I have

 

[natclanwy]

Dosing alk and calcium will be a constant task in any mature reef tank unless you can afford to do very large amounts of water changes.
I have been using a mix of baked baking soda and baking soda for a little over a year and I have been very happy with the results, it does not have to be mixed I add it directly to my overflow when I dose so its just as easy as any of the store bought buffers at just a fraction of the cost. I think I paid $7 for a 2lb box of baking soda which has lasted me the entire year on a 55g tank.

 

[meowzer]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/3211402
Dosing alk and calcium will be a constant task in any mature reef tank unless you can afford to do very large amounts of water changes.
I have been using a mix of baked baking soda and baking soda for a little over a year and I have been very happy with the results, it does not have to be mixed I add it directly to my overflow when I dose so its just as easy as any of the store bought buffers at just a fraction of the cost. I think I paid $7 for a 2lb box of baking soda which has lasted me the entire year on a 55g tank.
So you also "bake" your baking soda???

 

[natclanwy]

I just posted on your thread about this, I use mixture of 6 parts baking soda to 1 part baked baking soda. This mixture balances the Ph of the buffer so that it does not have near the effect on your Ph when you dose.

 

[btldreef]

Thanks Stanalee, that makes sense, but maybe I'm missing something here.
My Calcium and Mag do not drop in relation to my dKH.
I don't have to dose for Ca at all and haven't in 2-3 months. We were originally told that the two part buffer had to be used together so we dosed w/ the dKH buffer and the Ca. Our Ca was really high (520 or so ppm on any given day). Once we realized we could just use the buffer without the Ca, that's what we did.
We use Brightwell Aquatics Code Code A and B two part. We're dosing 15mL a day of the buffer and it's not holding the dKH constant.
Also, we did a 15G water change today and within 4 hours the dKH dropped 2. (9 to 7). To me, this is a really huge swing, especially for such a small amount of time. We've even had some LFS's in the area test our water and they're getting the same readings.
This is a 155G reef.

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3211571
Thanks Stanalee, that makes sense, but maybe I'm missing something here.
My Calcium and Mag do not drop in relation to my dKH.
I don't have to dose for Ca at all and haven't in 2-3 months. We were originally told that the two part buffer had to be used together so we dosed w/ the dKH buffer and the Ca. Our Ca was really high (520 or so ppm on any given day). Once we realized we could just use the buffer without the Ca, that's what we did.
.

calcium may not seem like its dropping because it hardly has to for carbonates to drop significantly. your calcium dropping 7ppm wouldn't be detectable with most calcium test kits but thats enough to drop dKH a by 1 which is very significant. more than likely you calcium could drop 20ppm without detection (or with detection but still being insignificant) but that little drop is enough to drop dKH by 3. its not uncommon to only require buffering alkalinity but eventually calcium will come on board as demand increases. the ratio is fixed though. coral skeletons are made of calcium carbonate using a ratio of 17.9ppm (1dKH) of carbonates for every 7ppm of calcium. hard corals (LPS and SPS) are probably fixed at this ratio for sure for their hard structures. not sure how much the ratio applies to softies/coralline/snail shell growth ect but all 2 parts are based off that ratio (which is basically almost a 3:1 ratio so you are dosing in equal volumes but hardly equal parts).

 

[jackri]

The directions on the bottle for two part are VERY misleading. You have to figure out what your tank consumes so you know how much your tank is consuming. This can be done for calcium, alk, and magnesium.
There are calculators for this at **************. What I do is -- find out what levels you want and work over several days to get them there. Once you have your level set -- DON'T DOSE for 4 days. Take measurements again and see how much they dropped. Then go back to the calculator -- figure out how much it would take to bring it back to your desired levels and divide by 4. That's your maintenance dosage once you again bring it back to your desired levels.
From there just test weekly to make sure you have the right dosage as you may have to give or take a bit here or there.
FYI -- it's not uncommon for coral heavy tanks (even in the 75g range) to consume 150ml of calcium a day. If you have to start dosing a lot -- making your own two part from their bulk powders is very economical vs. buying 16oz botttles (basically buy 6 pounds of powder which makes a bunch of gallons for the same price).

 

[btldreef]

So I guess dosing the Alk. buffer is a way of life now.
Thanks guys for all the help.

 

[bang guy]

What is the procedure you follow when you mix up new saltwater?

 

[btldreef]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3211765
What is the procedure you follow when you mix up new saltwater?
We make 20G of RO/DI let it sit w/ a heater and power head for a few hours, then add salt and let it sit for 24-36 hours still with the power head and heater.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by BTLDreef
http:///forum/post/3211789
We make 20G of RO/DI let it sit w/ a heater and power head for a few hours, then add salt and let it sit for 24-36 hours still with the power head and heater.
Try mixing in the salt before you heat the water. Carbonates mix better into cold water. Stir the water vigerously when you add the salt. I know that's not easy to do with 20 gallons but it's important. You may also want to consider making the saltwater 5 gallons at a time and then adding it to the 20 gallon container to sit.

 

[btldreef]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3211796
Try mixing in the salt before you heat the water. Carbonates mix better into cold water. Stir the water vigerously when you add the salt. I know that's not easy to do with 20 gallons but it's important. You may also want to consider making the saltwater 5 gallons at a time and then adding it to the 20 gallon container to sit.
I'll try it cold this week. We were finding the salt dissolved easier w/ the warmer water. And yes, stirring 20g is a pain, lol