Am I a member of the "Tang Police"?

[wangotango]

Originally Posted by Lizzy
http:///forum/post/2482821
So what would you say to someone that wanted to get a tang that was small and keep it till it was to big for the tank that they have and then trade it in for a different fish? Of course you would have to take into consideration the size of tank verses size of fish and all that fun stuff...I understand that at full grown size a 55 gal tank would be way to small...but for a tang under 2 inches seems to me it would have enough room to roam at that size...just wondering.

There's nothing wrong with that. If I had a large tank full of larger, aggressive, PITA fish, I wouldn't add a 2" passive tang into the mix, I'd put it in the small tank first and let it grow a bit so that it's more or less of an equal size then introduce it.
I don't know why the tank size issue isn't brought up with other larger fish, maybe it's because tangs are so much more attractive and popular it's a bigger problem with them

There's the tang police and the tang gestapo (sp). Some people give you some info as to why it may not be a good idea to add a certain fish to a system, and others just say "No" like a three year old. I think it's the latter that give the so called "tang police" the bad wrap.
My personal take on the 6' rule is that there isn't really any evidence persay that says that tangs do better in a 6' tank than a 5' tank, but rather that 6' is the largest stock size tank that's available and since you should try to give them the space they need would be your best option without going custom.
And personally I'm sick of the "well they'd be happier in the ocean cuz it's bigger" arguement. Of course they would, but there is a difference between just keeping a fish in a glass box, and trying to replicate their natural conditions and doing all that is possible to keep them healthy. I went through two yellow tangs in a 55 before it clicked.
Just my take on things, feel free to disagree (probably joined the thread too late

)
-Justin

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by Lizzy
http:///forum/post/2482821
So what would you say to someone that wanted to get a tang that was small and keep it till it was to big for the tank that they have and then trade it in for a different fish? Of course you would have to take into consideration the size of tank verses size of fish and all that fun stuff...I understand that at full grown size a 55 gal tank would be way to small...but for a tang under 2 inches seems to me it would have enough room to roam at that size...just wondering.

My take on it is this: I thought this way personally until I experienced it myself. I got a 1 inch hippo for my 55g knowing that I would upgrade to a 180 within the first year of having it. I'm actually done setting up the 180g now, so I actually did upgrade. But at any rate, since it was a juvenile, I figured it would have plenty of time to grow. What I didn't take into account is the difficultly in keeping something so young healthy. She got ich, then ended up with HLLE (so bad that her whole face lost color, and I'm still not able to get it healed, nearly 5 months after starting to treat it), and then she got ich again after introducing coral that must have had ich eggs in the rock. I've also read many stories of juvenile tangs getting HLLE or dying unexpectedly.
So while it's ok to put a small tang in a smaller tank for a while as far as size goes, the difficulty level in doing that may far outweigh the pleasure you'd get from keeping the fish. Personally, even after treatment for this round of ich is done, I'll probably still keep mine QT'd for a while to treat the HLLE before she'll ever get to experience the vast 180g swimming area.

 

[m0nk]

So my one LFS (That Fish Place in Lancaster, PA) got back to me about their listings, which are as follows:
They have 55g for Yellow/Scopas Tangs, 75g for Purple and Powder Blue/Gray/Brown, 90g for Atlantic Blue, 100g for Hippos, 120g for Sailfin/Naso/Clown, 180g for Unicorn/Dussumier's, no Ctenochaetus tangs have any size listed, and there are a few others that I just didn't get to look at.
The MB that responded to my inquiry noted that they listed these sizes as a minimum after observation of behavior in the different size tanks. They don't have any outside data though, just their own observations. The guy who responded also noted that the sizes they give are minimum starting sizes for smaller tangs and many of the fish they list will outgrow the minimum sizes when they reach adult-hood.
I wish they had better data to provide, but they have 4 MB's on staff, so I'm hoping that whey they say they observe the behavior in different size tanks that means there was some scientific methodology there when they determined these tank sizes. This, also, isn't something that can help or hurt the 6' argument, so it still comes down to anecdotal evidence and personal views, I guess.

 

[srfisher17]

I sure don't mean to be rude; and, as I've said many times, I will never tell anyone what they can or can't do. Also, I'll never put anyone on a "guilt trip" for doing whatever they want. I don't think fish are sacred; they are fish. That being said (a bit sanctimonious sounding maybe, but I don't mean it that way); its hard to think in terms of short term success, when, for 30+ year in this hobby, all my efforts have been toward long term success. If you're still with me (I wouldn't be); I see no reason why a very small tang couldn't be housed short-term in a smaller tank.

 

[aninafish]

Originally Posted by SH2000
http:///forum/post/2478148
There's no point in this discussion it's not like people acctually listen. Every one has the right and will do whatver they want to do no matter what you say to them. If you think your changing the world your not. Just educate all you want and that for me at least it's appreciated but if you think you make a difference you don't. This website lists a Blue hippo tang in a tank at least 40g. Maybe you should email them. They do not specify if that's in juv. stage or whatver...what SWF.COM says is good enough for me. As far as the name "Tang Police" it's not necessary you can give people your own opinions all you want you don't need to start a cult. Besides for the name being so silly it just makes me think you all wanted to be cops, If you want to boss people around boss your kids around.

I don't post often but I read obsessively. I feel I need to address the above. This thread, as well as almost every other thread I have read on here, does make a BIG difference. I completely take all opinions given into every step I take in this hobby. I have only been at this for a few years and consider myself new. To an extent I do not think anyone can master, or even come close to having vast knowledge in, this hobby. With that being said I am going to put in my half cent.
Personally I would not put a tang in my 55g. Not because of them being big swimmers or easily stressed, but due to their general size. I will not put anything that at full grown will be longer than a few inches in my tank. Perhaps if I had "The Great Dakota Reef" I might put a few large ones in there but all in all I cannot create an ocean. I do not feel there is any equipment on the market that will make one. We can come close but the large beauties will never be happy in my living room.
I am not condemning those who do have the large fish in their tanks but I do have to say I think anything less than a 120 would cause added stress to tangs. What proof do I have? Just looking at the fish at the LFS. We do not exactly get the pick of the crop in St. Louis, MO and what we do get are not properly cared for. I can see the tanks and watch the small yellow tangs in the 20g going nuts and watch the very small blue hippos ram their heads into the sides of the 10g.
I do feel there is a big difference between a 55, 70, 90 and 120s, but just like people, fish have different personalities. I am sure there are many tangs that are somewhat content in a 55 or a 70, I have seen a few in fact. Although the norm will kill themselves or drive themselves crazy. I just don't wish to take the financial or disease hit when I can blow $50-150 on a fish I know will thrive in my tank, not one I have a 30% chance of keeping alive. I also cannot go on the moral rampage of it all as it can go either way. No we shouldn't take the fish out of the ocean but the saltwater tank hobbyist have really opened the eye of the common person to reef conservation, so there is a purpose to it. Whether conservation education justifies the millions of fish that die for for hobbyists is very unclear.
Basically what the point of my post is to keep the agreement going. Please keep it going! As well as everything else you all argue about because I know it helps me make a good decision and if you all aren't here to help me and me alone then why are we all here?

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by ANinaFish
http:///forum/post/2483968
I don't post often but I read obsessively. I feel I need to address the above. This thread, as well as almost every other thread I have read on here, does make a BIG difference. I completely take all opinions given into every step I take in this hobby. I have only been at this for a few years and consider myself new. To an extent I do not think anyone can master, or even come close to having vast knowledge in, this hobby. With that being said I am going to put in my half cent.
Personally I would not put a tang in my 55g. Not because of them being big swimmers or easily stressed, but due to their general size. I will not put anything that at full grown will be longer than a few inches in my tank. Perhaps if I had "The Great Dakota Reef" I might put a few large ones in there but all in all I cannot create an ocean. I do not feel there is any equipment on the market that will make one. We can come close but the large beauties will never be happy in my living room.
I am not condemning those who do have the large fish in their tanks but I do have to say I think anything less than a 120 would cause added stress to tangs. What proof do I have? Just looking at the fish at the LFS. We do not exactly get the pick of the crop in St. Louis, MO and what we do get are not properly cared for. I can see the tanks and watch the small yellow tangs in the 20g going nuts and watch the very small blue hippos ram their heads into the sides of the 10g.
I do feel there is a big difference between a 55, 70, 90 and 120s, but just like people, fish have different personalities. I am sure there are many tangs that are somewhat content in a 55 or a 70, I have seen a few in fact. Although the norm will kill themselves or drive themselves crazy. I just don't wish to take the financial or disease hit when I can blow $50-150 on a fish I know will thrive in my tank, not one I have a 30% chance of keeping alive. I also cannot go on the moral rampage of it all as it can go either way. No we shouldn't take the fish out of the ocean but the saltwater tank hobbyist have really opened the eye of the common person to reef conservation, so there is a purpose to it. Whether conservation education justifies the millions of fish that die for for hobbyists is very unclear.
Basically what the point of my post is to keep the agreement going. Please keep it going! As well as everything else you all argue about because I know it helps me make a good decision and if you all aren't here to help me and me alone then why are we all here?

Wow, thank you. It definitely feels great to know that these sort of discussions are so helpful.

 

[1boatnut]

Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2483896
But at any rate, since it was a juvenile, I figured it would have plenty of time to grow. What I didn't take into account is the difficultly in keeping something so young healthy. She got ich, then ended up with HLLE (so bad that her whole face lost color, and I'm still not able to get it healed, nearly 5 months after starting to treat it), and then she got ich again after introducing coral that must have had ich eggs in the rock. I've also read many stories of juvenile tangs getting HLLE or dying unexpectedly.
Thats all fine,although there is nothing to back up that the cause of the problems has anything to do with the size of the tank. Especially the Ich. That was something that was introduced into the tank,and whatever the introduction was would have been the same even if it were a 220.
My Hippo was housed in a 29 for almost 7 months,along with a Oclerous Clown,2 Green Chromis and a purple pseudochromis,with no health issues except Ich,but I introduced it'not the size of the tank..The Hippo & pseudo were the only 2 fish to show signs.
I did hypo,IN THE DT TANK with L/R and live sandand everything turned out fine.
Like I stated in past posts,I have probabily done almost everything wrong in this honbby that you can do,and KNOW I still will make more mistakes,but so far I have managed to keep all my fish alive and seemingly happy.

 

[rcreations]

I don't think there is a straight right or wrong answer to anything in life, that includes fish keeping and tangs. Lets face it, not everything in life is rosy and perfect. There are compromises we all make, every day. So just like for us humans, not everything is perfect for fish. You want to be good to the fish... leave them in the ocean.
However, that doesn't mean I support keeping a tang in a 20 gal tank. You have to be reasonable. But I also don't think 1 foot more or less is gonna make or break a tang. Just my 2 cents.

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/2484069
Thats all fine,although there is nothing to back up that the cause of the problems has anything to do with the size of the tank. Especially the Ich. That was something that was introduced into the tank,and whatever the introduction was would have been the same even if it were a 220.
My Hippo was housed in a 29 for almost 7 months,along with a Oclerous Clown,2 Green Chromis and a purple pseudochromis,with no health issues except Ich,but I introduced it'not the size of the tank..The Hippo & pseudo were the only 2 fish to show signs.
I did hypo,IN THE DT TANK with L/R and live sandand everything turned out fine.
Like I stated in past posts,I have probabily done almost everything wrong in this honbby that you can do,and KNOW I still will make more mistakes,but so far I have managed to keep all my fish alive and seemingly happy.
I actually didn't say that the issues were directly related to tank size in that instance, though at one point I had considered it being that she was in a 55g with 2 clowns that are bigger than she is. What I really meant was that the issue is more related to the fact I got a small/juvenile one so it would fit in the tank initially and that is the cause of most of the trouble, being that she was possibly more susceptible to ich, but at least that she was more susceptible to HLLE.

 

[1boatnut]

Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2484155
I actually didn't say that the issues were directly related to tank size in that instance, though at one point I had considered it being that she was in a 55g with 2 clowns that are bigger than she is. What I really meant was that the issue is more related to the fact I got a small/juvenile one so it would fit in the tank initially and that is the cause of most of the trouble, being that she was possibly more susceptible to ich, but at least that she was more susceptible to HLLE.
So what your saying is don"t get small/juvenile fish,because they are more prone to disease,no matter what tank size they start out in ?

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/2484189
So what your saying is don"t get small/juvenile fish,because they are more prone to disease,no matter what tank size they start out in ?
No, juvenile tangs are more prone to disease, apparently. I've read on numerous other threads over time that juvenile tangs specifically have a high mortality rate. So, as I noted a while back, I believe that with my own personally experience, I wouldn't recommend someone put a tang in some tank that's X size because of the fish size, and that getting a juvenile because it might fit in a smaller tank isn't the best idea.

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2484281
No, juvenile tangs are more prone to disease, apparently. I've read on numerous other threads over time that juvenile tangs specifically have a high mortality rate. So, as I noted a while back, I believe that with my own personally experience, I wouldn't recommend someone put a tang in some tank that's X size because of the fish size, and that getting a juvenile because it might fit in a smaller tank isn't the best idea.
Also, this again comes down to the individual person. I can only say what the implications are, and it's up to the individuals to decide for themselves. If you want to get a juvenile tang, I'm not going to try and stop you, but you need to know what could happen and why. Then, if you go and do that, and you have problems, you'll already know why...

 

[1boatnut]

Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2484281
No, juvenile tangs are more prone to disease, apparently. I've read on numerous other threads over time that juvenile tangs specifically have a high mortality rate. So, as I noted a while back, I believe that with my own personally experience, I wouldn't recommend someone put a tang in some tank that's X size because of the fish size, and that getting a juvenile because it might fit in a smaller tank isn't the best idea.
mOnk,
I pretty much followed your train of thought throughout this entire thread,until now.
dude,I'm really confused

lizzy asked:
Originally Posted by Lizzy
http:///forum/post/2482897
I was wondering if the fish would do well in a smaller tank when its at a smaller size? or does say a 2 inch fish need the same swimming space as a 10 inch fish? thats my main question. Thats the whole point everyone has been trying to make on this thread after all isnt it? So the question i had was if a smaller tang would be healthy in a smaller tank? (as long as you were responisble for its needs when it got bigger? whatever method that would be)
To which you quoted and directly replied:
Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2483896
My take on it is this: I thought this way personally until I experienced it myself. I got a 1 inch hippo for my 55g knowing that I would upgrade to a 180 within the first year of having it. But at any rate, since it was a juvenile, I figured it would have plenty of time to grow. What I didn't take into account is the difficultly in keeping something so young healthy. She got ich, then ended up with HLLE (so bad that her whole face lost color, and I'm still not able to get it healed, nearly 5 months after starting to treat it), and then she got ich again after introducing coral that must have had ich eggs in the rock. I've also read many stories of juvenile tangs getting HLLE or dying unexpectedly.
So while it's ok to put a small tang in a smaller tank for a while as far as size goes, the difficulty level in doing that may far outweigh the pleasure you'd get from keeping the fish. Personally, even after treatment for this round of ich is done, I'll probably still keep mine QT'd for a while to treat the HLLE before she'll ever get to experience the vast 180g swimming area.

Which in my interperation of your statement meant this was relevent to tank sizeSo I asked:
Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/2484069
Thats all fine,although there is nothing to back up that the cause of the problems has anything to do with the size of the tank. Especially the Ich. That was something that was introduced into the tank,and whatever the introduction was would have been the same even if it were a 220.
To which you replied: (ok now I know its getting silly

)
Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2484155
I actually didn't say that the issues were directly related to tank size in that instance, though at one point I had considered it being that she was in a 55g with 2 clowns that are bigger than she is. What I really meant was that the issue is more related to the fact I got a small/juvenile one so it would fit in the tank initially and that is the cause of most of the trouble, being that she was possibly more susceptible to ich, but at least that she was more susceptible to HLLE.
But then you came back with this:
Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2484281
No, juvenile tangs are more prone to disease, apparently. I've read on numerous other threads over time that juvenile tangs specifically have a high mortality rate. So, as I noted a while back, I believe that with my own personally experience, I wouldn't recommend someone put a tang in some tank that's X size because of the fish size, and that getting a juvenile because it might fit in a smaller tank isn't the best idea.
Which is again pointing right back to tank size.......damn I'm confused

Your not in politics,are you?

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by 1boatnut
http:///forum/post/2484479
mOnk,
I pretty much followed your train of thought throughout this entire thread,until now.
dude,I'm really confused

lizzy asked:
To which you quoted and directly replied:
Which in my interperation of your statement meant this was relevent to tank size
So I asked:
To which you replied: (ok now I know its getting silly

)
But then you came back with this:
Which is again pointing right back to tank size.......damn I'm confused

Your not in politics,are you?

That last one is basically the overview of the whole thing...

Sorry if my logic is confusing, I'm a programmer and in programming everything can be circular. I'll try to refine my "message"

when I have a few more minutes.

 

[m0nk]

Ok, here we go.
Your first question, asking
"I was wondering if the fish would do well in a smaller tank when its at a smaller size? or does say a 2 inch fish need the same swimming space as a 10 inch fish?"
prompted my answer of
"My take on it is this: I thought this way personally until I experienced it myself. I got a 1 inch hippo for my 55g knowing that I would upgrade to a 180 within the first year of having it. But at any rate, since it was a juvenile, I figured it would have plenty of time to grow. What I didn't take into account is the difficultly in keeping something so young healthy. She got ich, then ended up with HLLE (so bad that her whole face lost color, and I'm still not able to get it healed, nearly 5 months after starting to treat it), and then she got ich again after introducing coral that must have had ich eggs in the rock. I've also read many stories of juvenile tangs getting HLLE or dying unexpectedly.
So while it's ok to put a small tang in a smaller tank for a while as far as size goes, the difficulty level in doing that may far outweigh the pleasure you'd get from keeping the fish."
Although you may have thought this meant I was relating it to tank size, I wasn't. I was actually saying initially I was of the opinion that it was ok to buy a juvenile tang to keep in your smaller tanks for a time, until I had first hand experience with how delicate/sensitive they are. This doesn't relate to the tank size, it's actually related to the difficulty of the juvenile tangs no matter what size tank they're going into.
I think that is where you're getting confused by my responses. I probably could have worded them less....wordy... but the point I've been trying to get across the whole time is the combination of 2 things (which was my final statement, that I think really confused things, haha): I don't think adult tangs belong in a certain size tank. Now, what that size is may be up to debate, and the direction of this discussion for a while has helped me reconsider a few things, but at any rate, they are certainly one of those fishes that you really need to think about the tank they're going into. Then, when it comes to trying a juvenile in a smaller tank, I can definitely speak to keeping a juvenile tang overall being a difficult decision, considering how delicate/sensitive they are and how many people report bad experiences.
Does that clear it up at all?

 

[coachklm]

thought I would post this ....
This is my Yellow Tang Adult next time time you want to stick a yellow tang in a 55g tank think of the adult at (many sites say 8") mines now at @10"

 

[1boatnut]

Very nice looking fish

Coach,any idea of the age of this fish,and have you had it since it wa little?

 

[m0nk]

Yeah, that is a beauty! I'm definitely getting a yellow for my 180, just want to get the other tangs in there first to be sure the yellow does get too aggressive.

 

[coachklm]

No I picked this guy up yesterday, this tang is said to have beaten the odds as many Y. tangs observed (In the wild) have been 8" or less,, What people don't understand is... tangs don't stop growing.. They die from disease, predation, and weakness (which is accelerated in a glass box the size of a coffee table.)

 

[2batrigger]

Tangs don't get HLLE from small tanks. It has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with nutrition.