Am I a member of the "Tang Police"?

S

sexyshrimp101

Guest
Originally Posted by muggiwhplar
http:///forum/post/2477709
No, I'm saying that it's not a thorough examination of the issue. There are all kinds of variables that need to be acounted for, such as hobbyist experience, feeding regimen, filtration system, other inhabitants, frequency of water changes, typical water parameters, etc. Without at least attempting to take all of these things into account, we're just talking about anecdotal evidence. That doesn't make it totally worthless, but I don't think it puts anyone in a position to be making claims with the degree of certainty, and sometimes belligerence, that I see from a lot of people.
The fact is all of those things are taken into consideration when people post here. It is like protocall to post your params, etc. in order to properly diagnose a problem, and that goes for stressed out tangs too. And I do agree there is belligerence here and there, and some posts can be worded better, but like Monk said, it is from both sides.
 
m0nk

m0nk

Active Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2477773
Online livestock seller?? What do you think they're going to say? Rationale behind that is more people have less than 125 gallon tanks. And Momma needs to make the car payment.

Interestingly, my LFS has most of the tank sizes listed for tangs ranging from 100-200g, and they're almost a warehouse-like seller.... though they do have 55g as the tank size for yellow tangs. I'm going to try and get them to provide some data since they've got 4 marine biologists on staff. I'd like to see what they used to calculate those tank sizes.
 
muggiwhplar

muggiwhplar

Member
Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
http:///forum/post/2477773
Online livestock seller?? What do you think they're going to say? Rationale behind that is more people have less than 125 gallon tanks. And Momma needs to make the car payment.

That has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the argument they make for their recommendation. It's reason to scrutinize their explanation, but it doesn't automatically negate it. As I said, I consider them to be pretty reputable. I've emailed them with questions before, and been told I should either not purchase an item, or been steered toward something different that also happened to be considerably cheaper. In my book, this gives them some credibility. Also, they recommend minimum 125 or 150 gallon tanks for the majority of their tangs, so your "more people have less than 125 gallon tanks" argument doesn't really work so well. I assume that there's some reason why they say a blue tang can do OK in a 70 gallon tank while most others cannot, so I've asked them to explain.
 
muggiwhplar

muggiwhplar

Member
Originally Posted by sexyshrimp101
http:///forum/post/2477801
The fact is all of those things are taken into consideration when people post here. It is like protocall to post your params, etc. in order to properly diagnose a problem, and that goes for stressed out tangs too. And I do agree there is belligerence here and there, and some posts can be worded better, but like Monk said, it is from both sides.
They may be taken into consideration, but not in any thorough, quantitative manner. Thus, it's anecdotal evidence that is less-than-airtight. My main issue is not with the recommendations themselves, but the degree of certainty with which they are presented.
 
coachklm

coachklm

Active Member
Originally Posted by SlyCoolman
http:///forum/post/2477471
The thing that really bugs me is that there is no evidence; ie, it is 100% based on morality, and it is wrong to shove that down people's throats. If "tang police" can come up with some real evidence, not just what they "think" or "hear", go ahead and preach it. But until then, think twice about flaming someone for keeping a fish in a tank you have "heard" is too small and give helpful advice for once.

How's this for evidence?
We studied territoriality and habitat use by yellow phase juvenile blue tangs, Acanthurus coeruleus, on a small fringing reef in Barbados, West Indies. Juvenile blue tangs occurred on the reef crest, spurs, and a transition zone between the reef crest and reef flat at a density of about 8 individuals per 100m2, but were much rarer on the reef flat. They were solitary and occupied stable home ranges (median=0.85m2) that increased with body size. Observational and experimental data documented aggressive defense of home ranges against conspecific and to a lesser extent congeneric, A. bahianus, juveniles (about 7.5 approaches and attacks per hour directed at intruders). Home range locations were structurally more complex and closer to a vertical face than expected by chance. Although juvenile blue tang territories overlapped considerably with those of larger and more aggressive Stegastes damselfish, which are believed to exclude solitary adult Acanthurus spp. from reef crest and spurs, the tangs avoided Stegastes and were rarely chased (<0.3 fleeing events per hour). Space use and social organization of yellow juvenile blue tangs contrast strikingly with that of both conspecific adults and congeneric juveniles.
those 2 numbers translate into 1076.39ft2/8 and 9.14932 ft2/1 (I dont think a 75g tank is close)
so you cant tell me a small tank is better then a large one....
outside of that THERES YOUR PROOF
on one tang species anyway.

Take it for what its worth and make the decision yourself.

p.s. no plagerizing...... PLEASE check your links before posting to see if they would violate the NO links to competitor rules.
 
mugg1977

mugg1977

Member
Just playing "devil's advocate" here, but in this case the median range really doesn't tell us anything. The median is the middle quantity (in this case, based on 8 individuals, the average of the two middle ranges). An average range would also have to be known, allowing the median to be standardized. In other words, 4 individuals could have had a range of .5m^2, and 4 could have had a range of 1.2m^2, making the median .85m^2. With an average, we could see if this was the case or if all individuals were really close to the .85 median (which is likely the case).
Once again, just playing devil's advocate here.
 
noah's nemo

noah's nemo

Member
Fish are'nt meant to be in a box kid, it does things to em..........bubbles,bubbles,bubbles........my bubbles!
could'nt resist, anyway i have a yellow in a 75 soon to have a 150.Still ,a box of water!
 
muggiwhplar

muggiwhplar

Member
coachKLM;2477905 said:
How's this for evidence?We studied territoriality and habitat use by yellow phase juvenile blue tangs, Acanthurus coeruleus, on a small fringing reef in Barbados, West Indies. Juvenile blue tangs occurred on the reef crest, spurs, and a transition zone between the reef crest and reef flat at a density of about 8 individuals per 100m2, but were much rarer on the reef flat. They were solitary and occupied stable home ranges (median=0.85m2) that increased with body size. Observational and experimental data documented aggressive defense of home ranges against conspecific and to a lesser extent congeneric, A. bahianus, juveniles (about 7.5 approaches and attacks per hour directed at intruders). Home range locations were structurally more complex and closer to a vertical face than expected by chance. Although juvenile blue tang territories overlapped considerably with those of larger and more aggressive Stegastes damselfish, which are believed to exclude solitary adult Acanthurus spp. from reef crest and spurs, the tangs avoided Stegastes and were rarely chased (<0.3 fleeing events per hour). Space use and social organization of yellow juvenile blue tangs contrast strikingly with that of both conspecific adults and congeneric juveniles.
those 2 numbers translate into 1076.39ft2/8 and 9.14932 ft2/1 (I dont think a 75g tank is close)
so you cant tell me a small tank is better then a large one....
outside of that THERES YOUR PROOF
on one tang species anyway.

Take it for what its worth and make the decision yourself.

p.s. no plagerizing...... []
And what exactly did the study say about the effects of keeping these tangs in 48"X18" glass containers versus 72"X24" glass containers? And did it give any kind of measure of dispersion for the typical home range, or describe the general shape of the distribution curve?
Click to expand...
 
coachklm

coachklm

Active Member
The lack of space and shelter will increase aggression. As competition increases, so does aggression. Therefore, if space and shelter are limited, behavioral problems usually occur. Most reef fish use a large area of a reef for their daily activities. For example, the achille's tang (Acanthurus achilles) maintains a feeding territory that covers from 54 to 215 square feet (Barlow, G. W., Am Zool 14:9-34) and a male valentini pufferfish (Canthigaster valentini) may defend an area that is more than 1000 square feet or larger (Gladstone, W., Mar. Biol. 96:185-191). It should be apparent from these figures that space limitations can lead to problems in the confines of an aquarium. Shelter sites are also important. Most fish will defend their place of refuge vigorously, particularly if shelter is in short supply.
OK I know you'll dispute untill your blue in the face so i'll just keep posting (because I'm defending my opinion).. so argue FOR your own opinion not just AGAINST mine
dont dispute unless you have your own opinion and facts to base some of it up...

that way we have a friendly two way dispute
 
muggiwhplar

muggiwhplar

Member
Originally Posted by coachKLM
http:///forum/post/2477995
The lack of space and shelter will increase aggression. As competition increases, so does aggression. Therefore, if space and shelter are limited, behavioral problems usually occur. Most reef fish use a large area of a reef for their daily activities. For example, the achille's tang (Acanthurus achilles) maintains a feeding territory that covers from 54 to 215 square feet (Barlow, G. W., Am Zool 14:9-34) and a male valentini pufferfish (Canthigaster valentini) may defend an area that is more than 1000 square feet or larger (Gladstone, W., Mar. Biol. 96:185-191). It should be apparent from these figures that space limitations can lead to problems in the confines of an aquarium. Shelter sites are also important. Most fish will defend their place of refuge vigorously, particularly if shelter is in short supply.
OK I know you'll dispute untill your blue in the face so i'll just keep posting (because I'm defending my opinion).. so argue FOR your own opinion not just AGAINST mine
dont dispute unless you have your own opinion and facts to base some of it up...

that way we have a friendly two way dispute

I see what you're saying, and I'm glad you're at least offering some kind of scientific data to support your opinion. However, while it does offer some good reasons for believing that the tangs will do better in a larger tank that at least offers them an amount of space closer to that which they'd usually occupy in the wild, it doesn't directly address the issue of how much more detrimental it is for a tang to be in a 75 vs. a 125. The size of its territory is only one of many factors that may influence its health. I'm not arguing FOR my opinion because I don't have one. I'm just asking that people justify their certainty in the various claims they make. I think I've already said twice in this thread that I think that a thorough study probably would show that tangs do better in a bigger tank. However, I don't know to exactly what degree or what the major factors are (e.g. swimming space could be a far less significant factor than the faster rate of waste build-up in a smaller tank, and in that case a small tank with a big sump and skimmer, and frequent water changes, might be a relatively good home for some tangs)--and I'm yet to see anybody else who seems to know these things.
 
slycoolman

slycoolman

Member
CoachKLM, Pomacanthus angels keep a territory, in the wild, measured in acres, not feet, but TBH I don't really see anyone keeping a tank bigger than an acre in their living room.
Point being, you are really comparing apples to oranges here. I will post what I did on a related thread as I think it displays my motives more accurately:
To clarify, the main thing I was trying to refute was the doomsday messages; ie, 1journeyman says "I hope it goes alright but I cannot see how it would". Secondly, I am not saying the tang wouldn't be best off in a bigger tank because 99% of fish would be, they come from the ocean after all. What I am trying to get across is that, the tang will be fine in that tank size IMO. I apologize for coming off as a "troll" as doing so was not in my priorities.
And would like to add that the main issue that I have with tang police is that too often they jump to tank size before examining other crucial issues, and they criticize the guy that really did care for his fish, enough to bother signing up at a forum. Let's face it, harsh e-criticism in this context won't really help the fish or the owner very much. I think, it would be best if other issues were addressed, and that if the owner lacks a tank smaller than the minimum, that he/she should be encouraged to upgrade/take the fish back, but diplomatically. That will pull a lot more weight than a flat "your tank is too small, buy a bigger one/take the fish back you cruel

[hr]
" IMO.
Lastly, I apologize if I came off as rude or arrogant, as I was just trying to help (indirectly, of course) any novices that happen to show up with a sick tang.
P.S.
I don't find it too demanding to request evidence as to why an opinion is held. JMO...
 
coachklm

coachklm

Active Member
O.K. you both have separate agendas in the thread so I may have been confused
sly- you wanted to dispute the attitude towards new people with tangs/vs tank size (I agree w/ you to an extent) whereas
mugg - you just want specifics that are not available.
mugg you want statistics and evidence to the extent of how everything that involves aquariums that we keep can and will harm the Tang. This is to include feeding habits,territory, water quality, other inhabitants that effect the Tangs (damsels).
as tangs are multiple and everywhere we can not test the water they are directly in and come from, compare it directly with ours and then do a comparative analysis on the effects of the change.
But we are seeing the effects of the difference by the number of diseases we see in our aquariums (show me a picture of a tang in the wild with HLLE)

man where's everyone ? figured someone would jump in here...lol
 
1boatnut

1boatnut

Member

Originally Posted by emm0909
http:///forum/post/2477617
Just ask people if they would want to live in a locked dorm room for the rest of their lives. Or if they would keep a dog in a kennel forever. People don't understand the space needed. Just because it can swim around in circles in there doesn't mean it's enough space. A shark will fit in a swimming pool but that doesn't mean it'll survive.
God I want to convert a swimming pool into a reef.

Sorry but I really can't buy that comparison,and I don't just mean to single out you,that is the comparison all use in their fight.
I would be much happier in a 6000 sq foot house vs a 3000 sq foot house,but it doesn't me I still can't be happy in the 3000 sq ft.
I find one of the biggest problems here is nobody wants to accept that many of us will grow in this hobby.People jump all over Tangs being kept in 75 gal tanks,even after some state they are up-grading. A 2" Tang in a 55 gal is fine for a period,but most here wont accept that. I have a Tang that has NO WAY doubled in size in the last 7 months.
I started in this hobby with a 55 gal tank that my wife won as a door prize.That was a little more than a year ago and since then I have added a 29,20,75,&125 gal tanks to my collection.
I can make a blanket statement that no Tangs should be kept in a tank less than 7',and then argue with nothing more than me saying my fish was in a 6' and is now much happier in the 7'.
The truth be told,certain Tangs should be left where mother nature put them,but we as humans will always find a way to rationalize ways for us to keep them.
 
ccampbell57

ccampbell57

Active Member
Coach - we are worn out from doing this in the Aggressive forum.
It is like talking to a wall on this issue. People will always have their agendas and no one will be able to de-rail them. Look at the people that bomb the abortion clinics because they are pro-life, but kill people in the process.
 
1boatnut

1boatnut

Member
Originally Posted by sexyshrimp101
http:///forum/post/2477801
. And I do agree there is belligerence here and there, and some posts can be worded better, but like Monk said, it is from both sides.
The fact is humans and animals alike will all retalliate when backed into a corner
 
sh2000

sh2000

Member
There's no point in this discussion it's not like people acctually listen. Every one has the right and will do whatver they want to do no matter what you say to them. If you think your changing the world your not. Just educate all you want and that for me at least it's appreciated but if you think you make a difference you don't. This website lists a Blue hippo tang in a tank at least 40g. Maybe you should email them. They do not specify if that's in juv. stage or whatver...what SWF.COM says is good enough for me. As far as the name "Tang Police" it's not necessary you can give people your own opinions all you want you don't need to start a cult. Besides for the name being so silly it just makes me think you all wanted to be cops, If you want to boss people around boss your kids around.
 
coachklm

coachklm

Active Member
dont forget a stressed out tang will stress out any other fish in the tank , become aggressive and diseased and eventually wreak havok on your 55-75 g tank!
Just a thought .... Yeah guys I not only brought up the health of the TANGS but the health of the other fish in the tank with the tang,.... whatcha got now...lol
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top