Another Introduced Species

[ophiura]

Thanks to fellow hobbyists!
And now, let me climb on my soap box (are soap boxes really that big? :notsure: if not, let me stack some, because I am REALLY in a mood! LOL) :
Why do some people get worried, for example, about the tang in the 55g tank? Because others before you have been irresponsible, and it reflects poorly on us all.
When you begin in this hobby, you have responsibilities greater than keeping your fish alive when you can no longer keep them. This fish in particular gets large, and sometimes aggressive. THINK before you buy fish. RESEARCH and RESPONSIBILITY! THINK before you really get that fish with the logic of "I'm going to upgrade the tank in the future." The ocean is not that tank upgrade!! Have self discipline; if you can't keep the fish long term than maybe you really ought not get it even if it is really pretty and you like it. And if you can find no home for them you have an obligation to kill them rather than ever releasing them.
I wonder how many of these are "nemo" era fish that, like all the dalmations that end up in shelters, people didn't realize what they needed. They sure look like that moorish idol in the movie. And now the kids are grown....let's set nemo and friends free!!!

:notsure:
And yes this does reflect poorly on the hobby. Both on the collection end, and on the release end. It is important to accept that, and be proactive in education and being responsible.
Now yes, things are introduced via ballast water, etc...but please understand that this hobby is frowned upon by many scientists. So don't, IMO, fall into the "it wasn't us" trap. It might very well have been...and even if not, the perception is that it is. We need to be aware of that, and work toward correcting what we can.
Sorry for the rant, but these stories really bother me. I just read one on Pleco's overrunning our Texas bayous and streams. They are all very sad stories. Please be responsible in what you keep!
Bannerfish Introduction
An interesting site:
Habitattitude

 

[emmitt2]

Thanks for the link, Ophiura.
Interesting read. Being a South Florida resident and a semi regular bass fisher in the Everglades, i can tell you we have serious problems here with non native species. LARGE Pythons are now rampant in the Everglades and our backyards are literally overrun with 2-4 foot long iguanas (my in-laws literally are scared to go in their backyard with 40-50 VERY large iguanas). That doesnt even count smaller snakes and fish that are messing up the Everglades that were introduced by bored collectors.

 

[ophiura]

Awww, but those little itty bitty iguanas at the store are so CUUUUUTTTEEE! This is also why I disagree with the sale to the tiny tiny clown triggers, panther groupers and emperor snappers (and others). Small and cute, they grow HUGE, and very few LFS will take them back.

 

[teresaq]

I totally agree. Living in cape coral Florida, we have a real problem with monitor lizzards. they are eating our burrowing owls. We also have problems with paco's in our waterways.

 

[emmitt2]

Lol, yeah these iguanas are real cute now. NOT!
My in-laws have some so big they are literally 3 feet long NOT including the tail. They must weigh like 20-30 lbs. They actually are more than a little scary, i dont like my wife taking my kids over there anymore it has gotten to be such a problem.

 

[puffer32]

Ahh aguinas are nice lizards. If you follow proper hygene after touching them, they can't hurt you.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by puffer32
Ahh aguinas are nice lizards. If you follow proper hygene after touching them, they can't hurt you.

Fully mature, rarely handled iguanas can do quite a bit of damage, IME!
But that aside, doesn't make up for them being released.

 

[hardcrab67]

Originally Posted by ophiura
Now yes, things are introduced via ballast water, etc...but please understand that this hobby is frowned upon by many scientists. So don't, IMO, fall into the "it wasn't us" trap. It might very well have been...and even if not, the perception is that it is. We need to be aware of that, and work toward correcting what we can.
]
Yes, because they would rather blame us, rather than the commercial trade of Import/ Export(bigger money than this hobby will ever gross). This has been going on for years and will continue for years to come. Here in VA we have a Zebra mussel problem(just one of many) from commercial ships, not hobbyists. Now you make a good point, even if the way you come across leaves much to be desired, but I guess Mods can act out w/o fear of reprecussion. Though the SPCA and Animal Rights groups aren't going to like you telling people to kill it instead of releasing it. I believe there are more responsible pet owners out there than not and true the few mess it up for the many. So to get my point across " You get more flys w/ sugar than salt" You come off as a ranting little know-it-all and don't even state your experience on your profile and so what if you work at a LFS(selling whatever makes your boss money to keep your job) and scrub algae at an aquarium. I've been on here 2 months( but visited for 6) and haven't read maybe 1 or 2 posts from you that were +, get a grip little girl. You constantly delete links, but have no problem plugging for where you work, when asked in your area, YOU should show some restraint and plug for SWF.com, especially since you're a MOD, rules should apply to everyone here. Now I will pass the soapbox to someone else. After all that bashing, I guess I have to go scrub algae now. And your "Welcome" fellow hobbyist! Note to fellow members- Sorry but I've had all of the "Holier than Thou" I can stand from this girl!

 

[ophiura]

Look, I am sorry to offend you, because clearly I have.
A couple of things:
SWF has a policy to not allow links to other stores, boards, etc. That is just how it is. I delete them, others delete them. I'm sorry you don't care for it, but those are the rules. Now educational, gov sites, etc often get by, because they do not have adds. But if they do have adds to other stores (and I am very unhappy some do because there is quality aquarium info out there), they can't be here. You'll note I commonly say "google such and such" which is my work around
I am a volunteer on this board, and if you actually read many of my post, you will see that I often try very hard to calm down issues. I don't see the point in bashing, I don't see the point in what you've said to me. I'm sorry you are offended by me :notsure:
But I do not often hide my views, that is true. I feel there is room for productive debate. Name calling and such? No, not productive.
My CV since questioned:
I studied marine invertebrate zoology, brittlestars almost exclusively, for over 10 years, several working on my doctorate at the Smithsonian Institution US Natiional Museum of Natural History. I did not finish that degree, because, well, I got married and learned things are more important. But I did learn A LOT about what scientists thought about hobbyists.
In grad school I taught quite a bit, as required. A particular favorite was teaching the Ichythyology component of a Tropical Marine Biology class in the Bahamas - fish taxonomy, behavior, ecology, etc.
When I left school, I took a very low paying job in a very large local LFS, dealing with Betta tanks to 40,000g system. I worked there about 15 months. I then took a job as a professional aquarist at a local aquarium, where I also worked for about 15 months, and cared for fresh and saltwater fish and invertebrates. Eventually, I got a job that pays bills

and has nothing to do with keeping tanks. But I try to still participate, because education is critical in this hobby.
I have no current place to push because I no longer work in this industry, and my volunteer efforts should speak enough to how I feel about SWF

I will suggest local fish stores, will suggest local fish clubs to those asking.
Now, I will probably be criticized for posting that information, but since you questioned it...
I have kept saltwater tanks over 10 years, starting with a 10g "worst way you can do a tank" system. Made lots of mistakes, and don't believe others should have to do the same.
Now again, I am sorry you dislike me clearly. I never mean to offend anyone but I am very passionate about responsibility. There is a lot at stake. I never implied that ship introduction is not important :notsure: but clearly we must accept that hobbyist introduction is also a great concern and issue.
I hope that you can understand as well that often tone is not clear in written word. I understood yours very well, but for the most part, I do not intend to be mean in any way. I've learned a lot, and I choose to share a lot. But hopefully you are misreading my tone.
My apologies otherwise.

 

[emmitt2]

Originally Posted by hardcrab67
Yes, because they would rather blame us, rather than the commercial trade of Import/ Export(bigger money than this hobby will ever gross). This has been going on for years and will continue for years to come. Here in VA we have a Zebra mussel problem(just one of many) from commercial ships, not hobbyists. Now you make a good point, even if the way you come across leaves much to be desired, but I guess Mods can act out w/o fear of reprecussion. Though the SPCA and Animal Rights groups aren't going to like you telling people to kill it instead of releasing it. I believe there are more responsible pet owners out there than not and true the few mess it up for the many. So to get my point across " You get more flys w/ sugar than salt" You come off as a ranting little know-it-all and don't even state your experience on your profile and so what if you work at a LFS(selling whatever makes your boss money to keep your job) and scrub algae at an aquarium. I've been on here 2 months( but visited for 6) and haven't read maybe 1 or 2 posts from you that were +, get a grip little girl. You constantly delete links, but have no problem plugging for where you work, when asked in your area, YOU should show some restraint and plug for SWF.com, especially since you're a MOD, rules should apply to everyone here. Now I will pass the soapbox to someone else. After all that bashing, I guess I have to go scrub algae now. And your "Welcome" fellow hobbyist! Note to fellow members- Sorry but I've had all of the "Holier than Thou" I can stand from this girl!
Wow, are you completely off base!!!
First, not that i need to say anything but at the very least Ophiura is an EXPERT on starfish and any question you may have.
Second, the mods on here are much nicer and more lenient than other boards!(--) Beyond that, Ophiura has helped me when no other Mod would (and that was a time when I didn't really deserve much help).
Like I said, not that she needs me to defend her and i dont wanna look like I'm kissing a#$ but Ophiura went above and beyond to help me and explain things to me when she certainly didn't have to and when no other Mods were willing to explain it to me.
p.s.- any other board i'm on would have instantly banned you for this, so if nothing else that should show you are wrong about her!

 

[ophiura]

BTW, I worked at a very unusual LFS when I did that, several years back.
I remember my boss came up to me one day and said " I would rather NEVER sell a seahorse, than sell it to someone who didn't know how to keep them." It was a rare thing to sell a seahorse, requiring water tests, and quite a bit of review of care. Same was true for many fish. And there were many fish (eg moorish idols) that we would never sell. They had a 7 day guarantee on fish, did water testing and kept records, and often sent customers out the door without fish (happy or angry). Very unusual. I did not have to sell what the boss wanted to make a buck.
You commonly see threads on this board asking for local LFS recommendations. Why can't I recommend some???
And BTW, I have NO REASON whatsoever to continue promoting this store. I get no discount, no deals...I am like any other customer.
I'll tell you what though, I am real grateful I don't scrub algae anymore. I have a desk job that I should be doing right now

but I still get over to SWF.

 

[molamola]

You come off as a ranting little know-it-all and don't even state your experience on your profile and so what if you work at a LFS(selling whatever makes your boss money to keep your job) and scrub algae at an aquarium. I've been on here 2 months( but visited for 6) and haven't read maybe 1 or 2 posts from you that were +, get a grip little girl.
I don't think I've ever read a post from Ophiura that came across as any of the things you have described. She's a fair moderator and will go out of her way to help members to have a successful experience in the hobby. If you've been here for 6 months, I don't know how Ophiura's experience could have escaped you because quite frequently, people will ask her how she is so knowledgable and she will always happily oblige.
Ships do bring non-native critters, especially mollusks and inverts, but some hobbyists are also responsible for the problem. Ships didn't introduce thousands of Asian Snakeheads into Crofton Pond in Maryland, or dump pirhana into the warm waters of Florida. I'd wager that most of the fish listed on this link (found in Texas alone, mind you), were introduced by hobbyists, as I've seen a lot of them for sale locally, or owned illegally... nonnative species found in Texas .
Though the SPCA and Animal Rights groups aren't going to like you telling people to kill it instead of releasing it.
That's funny, because our local SPCA destroys "rescued" animals if they are not adopted after a certain time because they cannot afford to keep them. The Humane Society will take them, assuming you make a nice donation. Wildlife rehab centers will tan your hide if you try to bring in a European Starling with a broken wing, as it is a nonnative species, and therefore deserves to be destroyed. I've had this experience numerous times, as I've attempted to take in injured wildlife with the hope that it will later be released.
I've also had experience working at a LFS, and people constantly brought in large fish that they no longer wanted, and some were illegal to keep in the state. They had to be destroyed. We couldn't keep them, we couldn't sell them, and they could pose a risk to the fish we were able to sell. And we even caught a girl trying to sell large plecos to us, that were caught in the ditch outside her house. She told us she had caught and sold more than 20 of them. I don't think a large freight ship could have sailed down her street and off-loaded them into her ditch.
Yes, ships do introduce nonnative species, but so do pet owners. Within recent months, I've seen nonnative parakeets and finches flying around, and my husband saw a cockatoo land in the road. Yes, irresponsible pet owners do contribute to the problem considerably, and once again, Ophiura has made a very good point.

 

[lion_crazz]

Not that she needs to be defended at all, but Ophiura is extremely intelligent and incredibly calm and kind. The things you said about her could not be any more wrong.
Ophiura, I totally agree with you on this subject and wish more aquarists were more responsible and conscientious when it comes to the hobby that we all love.

 

[psyparrot]

Interesting story about nonnative species:
Here in LA about ten years ago, a pet shop caught fire. While the fire deparment was on the way, the employees were busy trying to save the animals. The fire was spreading too fast to be able to carry all the cages out, so they released all the birds hoping they could save themselves. Well they did and a flock of parrots was saved
Today that flock has greatly grown in numbers, and settled down in CALTECH. They are a beautiful addition to our city and as far as i can see, cause no problems to the ecosystem.
Just a little story to lighten the mood of this thread

 

[puffer32]

Well i was talking about ones you buy in pet stores and you domesticate (sp) I have no experience with wild ones, sorry, i was half asleep when i read the thread

I did something I hate to see posters do, , didn't read posts all the way through before posting. An example is when a poster says they fed their new fish some live brine shrimp to get it to eat even if it has no nutritional value, but just want to get their fish to start eating and some one answers with" Brine shrimp has no nutritional value, so use blah blah blah".

And I did the exact same thing this morning

 

[molamola]

Originally Posted by psyparrot
Interesting story about nonnative species:
Here in LA about ten years ago, a pet shop caught fire. While the fire deparment was on the way, the employees were busy trying to save the animals. The fire was spreading too fast to be able to carry all the cages out, so they released all the birds hoping they could save themselves. Well they did and a flock of parrots was saved
Today that flock has greatly grown in numbers, and settled down in CALTECH. They are a beautiful addition to our city and as far as i can see, cause no problems to the ecosystem.
Just a little story to lighten the mood of this thread

We have a marina in Kemah that has a flock of Monk's Parakeets that have nested and reproduced. They are also quite lovely, but they sure aren't from around these parts. And I've read that in Big Thicket State Park, there are quite a few escaped parrots munching on the local plantlife

 

[ophiura]

This won't sound right but don't read into it

A friend of mine used to take a big iguana into the shower.
(really leave it at that)
Anyway, they can cause real problems when they don't want to do something. Saw that for sure :scared: I would be more than a bit worried if my backyard was overrun with them. But the small one's are very very cute, I mean that.

 

[hardcrab67]

We(the Hobbyists) are a drop in the bucket, compared to the ocean of problems that commercializm has produced. But don't compare the Hobbyist with the Impulse Buyer(ticks me off) Its like the tang debate, is 8 cubic ft of water going to make that big of a difference, no. We should leave them all alone where they are, if you want to be truthful about it. I believe you stated the ocean was the maximum care level and yet you yourself said you suggest 30gal is a good start, when you know the people buying them are going to want that pretty little yellow fish to go in it and your boss would fire you if thats what they want and you didn't sell it to them. And you have a point about responsibility when the fun is over, they should not release anything into the wild( Again, Impulse Buyer, not Hobbyist). I guess what I'm trying to say is yes I'm offended with one statement contradicting the other. Don't buy a fish and plan to upgrade later, but a 30gal is a good start. And don't tell me my pets aren't happy, when this is what I'm striving for! I'm not bashing, just like you I'm voiceing my opinion. And since you've had all that schooling, you should know that a dolphin is a mammal, not a fish and its laughing at the lower species of human, because what we've done to this world is a joke. Ever see "Men in Black" 1 or 2, I'm not sure, but at the end when they open the locker door. We could very well be an "Ant Farm" on a "55gal" planet, hope they upgrade us soon, we're running out of planet! Seriously how can anybody believe that we're superior in the great big universe. I seriously doubt it. We're not even close to top of the food chain, when a microscopic organism can take us out in an instant. At the top of the "Evolutionary Ladder", I think not! Again I'm a true Hobbyist, NOT an Impulse Buyer, please don't put me in the same bucket of water w/ them. :happyfish Happy Fish, Imagine that!

 

[molamola]

And since you've had all that schooling, you should know that a dolphin is a mammal, not a fish
Let me introduce you to my friend, the dolphin fish, otherwise known as mahimahi

 

[gexkko]

Florida has a major non-native species problem. The majority of the terrestrial/avain problem is not from hobbiests themselves, but from escapes during customs inspections and poor shipping practices. Irresponsible hobbiests do contribute to this problem, just not as much as some would make it out, atleast for terrestrial species.
When it comes to aquatic species however, those are generally introduced by irresponsible owners. Its rather difficult for a population of fresh water fish (or even saltwater fish) to be accidentally released and actually survive. Its a sad fact that people buy small and cute only to later release the large and difficult, because "I don't want to hurt it, but I can't keep it anymore."
The film Finding Nemo and the line "all drains lead to the ocean" really put the wrong idea into uneducated minds...
Sadly, ignorance is bliss, and our country is full of blissful people (but thats a topic for a different board...)
Thanks for the post. Everyone should read it and take notes..