Anyone Reduced Nitrates Effectively?

[ballzee]

I have a 135 Fish Only, one porc. puffer and one miniatus grouper, with a 2 - 3 inch live sand bed, wet.dry filter, uv steralizer.
All levels are perfect except for Nitrates. They continually rise. I have checked my source of top off water and it reads 0 nitrates.
I am increasing my DSB to 4 - 5 inches. However, I still need to get these Nitrates under control. Any suggestions, I have put in de-nitrate at the suggestion of the LFS but I do not believe it will work.
Currently Nitrates are close to 100!!!!!!!!! I am doing another water change tonight.

 

[jim672]

Ballzee,
First thing I'd do it have my LFS check my reading. It could be your test kit is off. If not, water changes are the best way to reduce nitrates......but remember, you're diluting the nitrates when you do a water change.....if your reading actually is 100, a 50% water change would only reduce that to 50.....and so on.
Jim

 

[bang guy]

Once my 4" sand bed became established my Nitrates have read <5ppm

 

[twoods71]

A while back I admit I neglected my tank for a long time. When I did get around to testing my water that is when I found nitrates off the chart.
It took a long time to get the nitrates down to a decent level. I did 10% water changes 3 times a week and vacuumed the CC everytime. i finally got the trates down to around 40. At that time is was a FOWLR.
Sense I have switched to LS with much more LR and have a reef tank now. I have also added equipment like a skimmer and refugium. I keep up with maintenance now and nitrates stay <5ppm

 

[frankl15207]

Are you using tap water for your replacement water? That could be a source of the nitrates.
Until you correct your source, try http://www.algone.com. That worked for me when I had a problem several years ago with a FO tank that was neglected due to spinal surgery. However, even they state that the cause needs to be corrected or the problem will return. I still use it as an additional safety measure in my reef tanks.
The nitrate remover may also work with the other measures that you are taking. You just need to give it time. Most of those products are biological, not chemical in nature, and need some of their own time to establish and kick in.

 

[shnookums]

i agree that you need to do water changes and get the water checked. I also think a skimmer would help. if you have media in your filter, you may want to rinse that with your dirty salt water during a water change, filters are nitrate & ammonia growers. Keep us informed in your progress.

 

[ballzee]

for the advice.
When you say rinse your media, do mean the bio balls or the filter pads? Filter pads are rinsed once a week.

 

[bigeyedfish]

I agree with the recommendation about adding a refugium. You wont believe how fast caulerpa and mangroves will grow when you have high nitrates. Mine went crazy. After a month my refugium reduced my nitrates to zero and have been that way ever since.

 

[heavenly damsel]

Do you have any LR? Some say bioballs create a nitrate problem after a while, I have never used them. With an agressive set up do you have any kind of clean up crew?
We had a small nitrate problem that we cleared up with the refugium and caulerpa. That may help you some. Sounds like you need a clean up crew to take care of the mess your other fish leave after feeding though. HTH

 

[sgt__york]

Originally posted by Heavenly Damsel
Some say bioballs create a nitrate problem after a while

Grrrrrrrr.. *puts on a cape, and begins his mantra as 'defender of the bio ball'* LOL
bioballs are inorganic an do not "create" anything except an efficient environment to house bacteria that consume ammonia and nitrites LEAVING nitrates.
Moreover, regardless of the environment (LR or bio ball) you can ONLY grow as much bacteria that release nitrate AS The initial ammonia SOURCE that you have - ie, your bio load. There is no such thing as 'converting it too fast' OR 'converting MORE nitrates per given amount of ammonia'.
The ADVANTAGE of not having bio balls is NOT necessarily in the LR (as most ppl with bio balls have LR as well anyways) but in the DSB that many people have with helps to REDUCE (thus slowing the rate) of nitrate accumulation in the tank.
Don't blame the bio balls!!
In fact, if you got bio balls and ALSO USED a DSB (funny, not many ppl seem to do this combo) - you would get the same result in nitrate rate reduction.
From all the reading i've done, and read about those here with experience the ALGAE-REFUGIUM seems to have the most success serving as a nitrate reducer/filter. In fact, I have yet to read about failure with someone having one setup properly. I can't wait until more scientific methods are used to help determine known "rates of reduction" and general rules of thumb for "sizing, flow rates, types of macro algae" etc in relationship to the size and type of the primary tank. But in everyone's experimentations, algae refugiums seem to be the way to go.
*mumbling* bio balls create nitrates - always pick'n on the bio balls - what did a bio ball ever do to them??

 

[fshhub]

i agre with anthem in a an aggressive tank, it is more difficult
i also agree with heavenly damsel on wet drys they also do nothing to help remove them and in fact work to remove nitrites which leaves nitrates as the end product), however, the deeper sand bed will not hurt and may help some, in combination with lr, this could defintiley make a difference, and if teamed up with a good skimmer(a real good one in an aggressive set up) would definitely go a long way, but you will still have a battle having an aggressive tank,
these things will only make it easier but not cure the problem without some help from you(those guys are messy fish with appetites)

 

[sgt__york]

Originally posted by fshhub
in fact work to remove nitrites which leaves nitrates as teh end product
Isn't that what the bacteria media is SUPPOSE to do, as nitrites are toxic to both corals and fish? Doesn't matter if it's on bio balls, live rock, in the sand bed, etc - why would you ever NOT WANT your bacteria to convert nitrites to nitrates?
I still stand on the fact the nitrate level is a direct end result of the ammonia production rate regardless of what media the bacteria grows on.
I agree DSB helps to grow anerobic bacteria to further convert nitrates out of the system (slowly) BUT that has nothing to do with bio-ball or no bio-balls in a wet/dry. You can have a DSB with bio-balls OR without them - and theoretically it should remove nitrates at the exact same rate (given the same ammonia production rate).
I just don't see it as an "OR" but in addition to. If you choose to grow your bacteria on the LR and Sand, that is cool too - but growing it on bio balls does NOTHING to increase nitrates - especially if you incorporate a DSB with them as well. You are simply INCREASING the surface area for this bacteria has to grow on. Additiono surface area that happens to also have a larger ppm of oxygen as well. Do you "NEED" all this additional surface area if you have LR and a DSB? Probably not, but some of us like to overkill and backup our backups.
I just cannot see linking bio-balls to a nitrate producer any more than linking Live Rock to a nitrate producer.

 

[heavenly damsel]

Given all of the effective ways to convert ammonia and nitrites to nitrates.....the original question dealt with the nitrate issue. A refugium with caulerpa is an effective nitrate removal system. Caulerpa does have some problems of it's own though. It grows like crazy and can go sexual if not kept in check.
The ammonia production needs to be dealt with. Look at the causes of excess ammonia in the tank to solve the issue.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[fishman0729]

what do you guys mean by refguim? What is that? Is that like a sump? I also have a small nitrate problem.. I was wondering if i place some of those plants mentioned , if it will reduce them ?
Thanks all advice welcomed!!!!

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by sgt__york
I agree DSB helps to grow anerobic bacteria to further convert nitrates out of the system (slowly) BUT that has nothing to do with bio-ball or no bio-balls in a wet/dry. You can have a DSB with bio-balls OR without them - and theoretically it should remove nitrates at the exact same rate (given the same ammonia production rate).

I agree with everything you said except for the above paragraph.
The only problem with bio-balls and a DSB is that the bio-balls are too good at converting nitrite to nitrate. With the incredible flow and awesome gas exchange taking place in the bio-balls the DSB cannot compete and most of the conversion will take place in the trickle filter and only a small amount on the sand bed.
The problem lies in the way DSBs remove nitrate. The worms, bugs, and other sand infauna slowly move water through the sandbed to the deeper anoxic areas. For a DSB to effectively remove nitrate it needs to be produced locally, ie. the top area of the sand bed. In other words, to sustain a large population of bacteria that converts nitrate to nitrogen gas they require a low-oxygen environment and a slow water flow concentrated with nitrate.
If the bio-balls are doing most of the nitrification then the nitrate is diluted in the tank water and very little nitrate will make its way to the bottom of the sand bed. There will be some nitrate reduction but nowhere near enough to keep up with a fully stocked aquarium.
If you want to keep the bio-balls then a caulerpa filled refugium is your best mechanism for nitrate export. A DSB isn't going to do it alone.
Guy

 

[heavenly damsel]

You can find a lot of information about refugiums by doing a search. Then find a friend at your local reef club to share some caulerpa with you. It grows very fast so you won't need much. Then share yours with some one else or take it to the LFS for store credit.

 

[sgt__york]

BANG,
As you said the bio balls environment is much better at housing the bacteria for ammonia and nitrite consumption due to it's rich oxygen exchange. It would overpower some of the DSB's ability to perform that function.
Whwat I don't understand is - once the nitrates are produced by the bacteria's conversion - WHY does it have to be locally on the sand?? The nitrates are diluted throughout the entire tank fairly equally provided adequate tank turnover, right?
As worms move thru the sand don't the nitrates make their way down whether their production was done at the top of the sand OR are just in the water?
I've never really heard this aspect of the DSB discussed - ie, the need for it to ALSO perform the ammonia/nitrite conversion locally.
IF this is true, would that mean the "LESS" live rock you have to perform this function the more active the sand would be - and thus also be more effective?? If so, that would be an arguement for LESS live rock. Else, if it is the LR surface performing the ammonia/nitrite conversation - it is also remote of the DSB and I don't see how a further remote location like bio balls would be any different.
Wouldn't it also be true, that a DSB located in a refugium (if you have a bio ball setup) would then logically also be ineffective and useless?
As I said, i've never heard an arguement that the DSB needs to perform a ammonia/nitrite conversion locally. I'm very curious to learn more about this. If so, it does change the dynamics of the comparison.
*curious/inquisite*

 

[bang guy]

I tried to think of a good analogy but the best I can come up with is a kitchen. ROFL
If you place a fan in the window of a kitchen to remove the heat from the oven it will work to remove SOME of the heat. But the kitchen will still be unbearably hot.
If you place the fan right above the oven it will remove most of the heat coming from the oven and make the kitchen a lot more comfortable.
Same with your sand bed. If the Nitrate is produced in the top layer of the DSB and the water is slowly flowing down in that area then the nitrate will be more concentrated than just pulling straight tank water into the sand.
As far as Live Rock. It will produce the same effect as a sand bed, just (argueably) a little less effective. If the nitrate is produced at the surface of the rock it can slowly trickle into the ******** of the rock where anoxic bacteria can convert it to nitrogen gas.
"Opinion Mode"
IMO live rock has only a fraction of the surface area of the sand in a DSB and cannot compete with the sand for nitrification. I consider it decorative or a good place for fish and 'pods to hide and a great place to attach coral to. I do not consider it to be a major factor in my filtration system. I do believe it helps but it's a minor contributor. If I ONLY had live rock for filtration I believe it could handle a normal bioload. I just think with the incredible surface area of a sand bed my rock doesn't contribute much to filtration. Just like I think your sandbed doesn't contribute much to filtration with the bio-balls in place. The Bio-balls are so much better at it.
Another opinion is that you asked some GREAT! questions and I hope to hear more opinion and experiences.
Guy

 

[bang guy]

jeez, Sammy had to come by with a reality check.

 

[ballzee]

I feed either once or every other day. Most of the time it is every other day. I only feed krill right now because the puffer will not eat anything else. The grouper is only about 5 inches long and not very big. I feed maybe 3 to 4 pieces of small krill to each fish.