Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tap water filter...

[reefnut]

Originally posted by beaslbob
Reef: Congrats. My point always has been all you needed is the plant life
All: My point is that even with non potable water or even industrial waste and highly poluted water, it still would be possible to keep any type of aquarium even a saltwater reef. Through the action of plant life alone. The only question is how much plant and for how long before any life could be sustained. But with potable tap water you need less plant life and takes little time for that plant life to filter the system to reef values.
Your point doesn't hold up. My nitrates are 0 NOT SOLELY BECAUSE OF THE PLANTS. As your tank has proving, plants alone can't keep up.
Cindy, I was told the fluoride in a fish tank is bad. Our fish bon't brush their teeth and it could interfere with their breathing.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by cincyreefer
I wonder why the Bang Dude doesn't have much input on water sources...
I use well water to encourage Diatom growth for propogating some of the animals that eat it. My Conch require massive amounts of Diatoms.
If YOU also want lots & lots of diatoms then well water or tap water will do that for you.
Also, to remove heavy metals and other toxins I treat all of my well water with Calcium hydroxide. To not treat this water would probably shorten the lifespan of most of my animals by 50 - 75%.

 

[reefnut]

Bob, Your nitrates have been "trending" down for mnths now. Each time you post results they are different which tells me you really want it to work but the fact is... its not.
I can prove the effectiveness of the methods I utilize. All you can do is talk, hope and turn things around.
Face it Bob, there are better ways to do things than what you propose.

 

[reefnut]

And in the process you set up a system that has more failure possibilities and is more expensive.
Failure... no. More expensive... yes.
Here's my last words. You reported mnths ago that you had a nitrate level of 40ppm. You reported late last week you had a nitrate level of 40ppm. You claim it is trending down but this tells me it is not.
Now, you tell other hobbyist all they need is plants and they can have 0 nitrates in no time when you yourself can not achieve 0 nitrate. You tell hobbyist all they need to control algae blooms is more algae. I can testify that is not the case. Although they help that's not all that's needed. You have admitted yourself to having hair algae so again you can not achieve what you claim.
Your tank, your choice but quite mis-leading other hobbyists. Tell them the FULL truth and they can decide from there.

 

[cincyreefer]

Cindy, I was told the fluoride in a fish tank is bad. Our fish bon't brush their teeth and it could interfere with their breathing.
Too much fluoride can be bad, just like anything in an aquarium. Flouride is very debateable, but may also play a role in calcification of corals, as well as helping fish keep strong bone structure. This is a topic I consider to be along the same lines as adding iodine. There is not a real easy way to test it, and too much can become detrimental.

 

[reefnut]

cincy, that's interesting.
We don't have fluoride in our water system...

(I wish we did for my kids). We do however have plenty of heavy metels, phosphates and nitrates... 150+TDS the last time I checked .

 

[cincyreefer]

Also, to remove heavy metals and other toxins I treat all of my well water with Calcium hydroxide. To not treat this water would probably shorten the lifespan of most of my animals by 50 - 75%.
Thats pretty much the reason why I don't understand the reason why people say you HAVE to use RO/DI water to have a successful reef tank. If you drip Kalk/Limewater/Calcium Hydroxide or whatever you want to call it, then tap water isn't necessarily so harmful to a reef tank. Diatoms are not a bad thing for a tank... It just means a little extra maintenance.

 

[reefnut]

At what point of saturation does the limewater precipitate heavy metals and phosphates?

 

[bang guy]

I don't know for sure.
It seems to precipitate at a Ca level above 600ppm and a PH above 11.
I keep mine fully saturated though (800ppm Ca and Ph above 12).
I use RO/DI when mixing salt for water changes though. The well water is just for topoff.

 

[reefnut]

Good point Guy. Water change water is a very important part of the equasion...
In my 55g I mix a 1/2 saturated solution. It shouldn't have any heavy metals anyway... just curious.
So a active plant growth and removing some every 2 months or so is all a system needs to export the heavy ions from tap water. Or any other water source as well.
This is speculation. One would have to know how much is being added vs how much is being removed by the macros. Unless you have a very sophisticated lab you have no idea if this is true or not. STOP THE LIES

 

[cincyreefer]

Bang Guy- Thats exactly my preferred method... I sure don't recommend doing water changes with tap water. Just seems a little counter productive in some aspects.
Bob- Glad to see that you now seem to advocate the removal of macros for nutrient export. I understand the ideas behind your methods, but I am not so sure they are the easiest to work with... especially for someone newer to the hobby who doesn't understand it. IMO, there is more error in relying on plant life so heavily, than by performing water changes with quality water to aid in nutrient export. I think you should still try using a skimmer... You can even build your own if you want. I think a skimmer would go farther on stabilizing your system than you think. The bottom line to me is that I don't want to rely on one source for filtration. I think the best systems have the most diverse sources of filtration, which all supplement to the efficiency of the others.

 

[bang guy]

The research I've seen and experiments I've been a part of indicate that algae does not sequester the following elements that are harmless to humans and toxic to invertebrates in significant quantity:
Copper
Cadmium
Chromium
Nickel
Zinc
Tin
Algae does sequester these elements in significant quantities:
Iron
Aluminum
Iodine
Potasium
Phosphorus
Sulphur
These are all commonly found in tap water and need to be removed in my opinion.
I agree with Beaslbob that the copper in tap water does not come from household plumbing in any significant concentration. Most of it comes from the source and there's plenty to be concerned about in most locals.

 

[reefnut]

That means nothing to me... how much will macro algae absorb? at what rate? Will it keep up with what your adding via-tap water? You can not answer that without some very involved testing. I'll keep my mechanical filters and my 0 nitrates thank you...

 

[tinydove]

I seem to be ALL confused now on this water thing!
My hubby works for a waste water treatment plant and he says they have R/O water. Could I use that water instead of the R/O water from my LFS? Is it the same or am I looking at trouble if I use it?

 

[1journeyman]

"Copper as well as other heavy ions are trapped in the cells of the plant life."
Are there any studies that show this?
I'm not debating, just asking. I wasn't aware that plants absorbed heavy metals.
EDIT
Thanks for the info Bob.. for whatever reason my question appeared after your post.
Now my concern is who absorbs copper faster, marine life or palnts.

 

[tinydove]

What kind of plant life would be good?

 

[reefnut]

Good for what? Refug? Spaghetti algae is a good one.
IMO RO/DI water is the best. Tap water can contain all kinds of impurities that are not wanted in a SW tank.

 

[reefnut]

wetwebmedia where you recieved the above information also has the following to say...
Water intended for human consumption; drinking, bathing, washing, what-have-you is rendered biologically Zippo (that is, nothing living in it) by semi-unselectively poisoning it with materials that are supposedly not very toxic to us.
.............
Basically, know this, the water district types are not your best fishy buddies. For various reasoning, they fool with the water, very occasionally yielding a more and more toxic product that you must remain vigilantly suspicious of.
............
There are several major benefits of frequent partial water changes: Dilution of nutrient, removal of particulate matter, reduction in microbial populations and their metabolites. Results anticipated are faster, more vigorous growth, reduced algae growth, color and odor.
.............just thought I would throw that one in there...

 

[bang guy]

Bob,
That's all very interesting but I can't tell from your post where Anthony gathered his data from. I don't believe that those studies were conducted using amature reef aquariums like the study I'm referring to. Captive reef systems behave much differently than open ocean and certainly a LOT differently than fresh water bogs.
The results I posted were from Caulerpa, not micro algae. I would not hesitate to agree that perhaps different species of Caulerpa sequester elements in different concentrations. The Caulerpa used in the study were Serrulata and Racemosa. Those are both very common in the hobby.
"So I have absolutely no doubt that saltwater plants remove copper as well as other heavy metals. and other toxins as well. "
I do not disagree with this statement but what I said is also true. The elements I listed are not removed in significant quantity by Caulerpa.
let's put numbers on Copper.
My tap water tested at 0.21ppm copper, the EPA standard is 1.3ppm Copper.
The tank water of the participants averaged 0.024ppm Copper.
Sea water averages 0.00025 so that's the number to shoot for.
(Copper is definately a required trace element but too much is really really bad).
The freeze dried Caulerpa tested 0.587 ppm copper. This sounds like a lot of copper but I had a 5 gallon bucket full of Caulerpa freeze dried and it weighed less than a pound. That's a LOT of Caulerpa.
Freeze dried Caulerpa is denser that water but for arguement sake let's say they are the same.
This means that if I use my tap water and used only Caulerpa to remove it I woul have to remove an equivalent of 0.21/0.587% = about 35.8% of the water weight in Caulerpa.
ie. If I add a gallon of my tap water I need to remove 2.86 pounds worth of freeze dried Caulerpa to keep the copper level in the tank the same. Again, I can tell you that a 5 gallon bucket full of freshly harvested Caulerpa dries to less than a pound.
The actual estimate derived by the researcher concluded that 37 pounds of dried Caulerpa would have to be removed from the average tank just to get Copper down to NSW levels.
The average tank was about 45 gallons. I'll let you do the math on how much Caulerpa you need to keep in order to harvest 2.86 pounds of dried Caulerpa.
This is why I don't believe Caulerpa sequesters a significant amount of Copper.

 

[cincyreefer]

Ok... I have no idea exactly how the experiment was performed, but I have a few questions. What kind of copper are we talking about? I am assuming copper sulfate? What all was in the tank? Anything that is calcium carbonate can easily cause the copper to come out of solution. And copper in the freeze dried caleurpa was measured but dissolved copper was measured in water? And isn't freeze dried caleurpa more dense than water only once it becomes saturated with water? The weight would then rise considerably.