Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tap water filter...

bang guy

Moderator
1 - Elemental Copper.
2 - All ions, not just Copper sulfate.
3 - The tanks were volunteers all were reef tanks.
4 - Copper was measured by Inductively Coupled Plasma Emission Spectrometry for both the Caulerpa and the tank water samples.
5 - No, freeze dried Caulerpa is heavier than water after the air is pressed out.
 

dburr

Active Member
I think Bob is right about macro algae. It's a great filter. I think everyone hear can agree on that. But, why take 1 step backwards adding tap water to take 2 steps forward by having the macro. Why can't you just take 3 steps forward, you'll get there alot faster.:notsure:
 

reefnut

Active Member
Only you could get away with such BS :notsure:
Your system disproves AGAIN what your saying. How can someone deliberately be so blind?
 

dburr

Active Member
Additionally, all unecessary devices require maintenance and are subject to failures. And those failures (bad ro/di filters for instance) create situations much worse than the tap water you are trying to avoid.
So, you agree tap is bad and you add it anyway to see how far you can push your tank? OK, your tank~your choice.
 

dburr

Active Member
My point here is that a single failure in ro/di membranes would do more to crash a tank than constant use of tap water.
It wouldn't do anymore than just not having one. Like you.
create situations much worse than the tap water you are trying to avoid
Much worse than tap water, much worse? You do agree alittle that tap is not good. You wrote it.
 

reefnut

Active Member
At least we all are now in agreement that tap water is bad and macro algae can help but should not completely take place of mechanical filtration.
 

bang guy

Moderator
I am also a strong advocate of natural filtration.
My thrust is "natural" filtration.
The ocean uses mostly rainwater as topoff with a small amount of river water for trace elements. This doesn't relate to tap water in any stretch. Tap water is processed beyond recognition.
The closest we can come is RO/DI water to replace rainwater IMO.
Protein skimmers reproduce the wave action in the ocean over the reefs. I believe these are strongly beneficial on many levels.
Algae is only part of the equation in ocean water cleanup, why would you rely only on algae for cleanup in a captive environment?
I use Algae, DSB, live rock, protein skimmer, and Xenia to clean my water. I believe this is as close to natural as I can get. If I find nature doing something else I'll try to incorporate it to see how it works for me.
IMO relying on algae as your only water cleanser is a BIG mistake and will end up being a major problem in a couple/few years.
Just my opinion.
 

mobikobeyob

Member

Originally posted by tony detroit
How about everybody come to an agreement.
Use RO/DI AND plants, is that so hard?

And a cup of Tapwater, to feed those plants. LOL:D
Mobi:D
 

reefnut

Active Member
Everyone knows "plant life" or algae is a useful form of filtration. But it is not the only important form. RO/DI water, skimmers, LR, LS, water changes, light bio-load, etc are also equally important. IMO, it’s better to be pro-active than re-active.
Pro-active... RO/DI water, skimmers, LR, LS, water changes, light bio-load, etc
Re-active... allowing plants to clean up what you have missed
No-active... hoping plants will keep your tank from crashing
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Wow, this is a cool discussion. I bow to the original poster. The filter that started this discussion may be crap, but I'm learning a lot!
Ok, hear's the thing: While I am a fan of plants and all, aren't we leaving out a few of the negative impacts they can have on a tank?
They will out-compete photosynthetic corals.
They can crash a tank by releasing reproductive spores.
They lower pH when the lights are off by exhaling CO2
EDITED... not enough sleep
Granted some of these are extremes, but then again so is the argument that my pump on my protein skimmer may go phyco and explode in my sump...
 

cincyreefer

Active Member
1. Not unless the plants are allowed to overrun the corals space
2. Yes, certain kinds can be more harmful than others. If proper maintanence is used this shouldn't be too much of an issue.
3. Thats why many people use a reverse lit fuge or 24/7.
4. No, CO2 is consumed and O2 is exhaled during photosynthesis.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Hi Bob,
I use multiple methods to maintain water quality because it works best for me. I rely on algae a lot to remove nutrients but it is not the total solution, nor even a major contributer to overall water quality. Algae is just a single tool. I do not believe there is a single filtration system that does it all. I'm in favor of keeping algae in reef systems, just not Caulerpa near any corals. Algae is NOT able to fix the effects of using tap water in all locations. Saying that "if water is fit for human consumption then it is fine for corals" is wrong. Dead wrong...
To answer your questions:
"1) The value to shoot for is obviously .024ppm copper because the tanks are already successful reef tanks."
Feel free to shoot for 0.024ppm copper. It's your tank. I can tell you that delicate animals like Linckia and many of the larger snails will not live a full life at that level. I have and will continue to maintain NSW levels of trace elements where possible. Anything else is probably going to be detrimental. I guess the plus side of a copper level that high is that your fish are probably never going to get Ick.
Perhaps there was an implication that the tanks in the study were successful reef tanks. Based on some of the numbers I saw for water parameters I doubt they all were.
About the only conclusion I can make about the state of the aquariums is that they were all able to grow enough Caulerpa to be harvested for a study.
"2) the input values for the water in the tanks is unknown. If the tanks used .025 ppm copper input water the copper was only lowered by .001ppm. If plant life traps the copper int its cells, obviously higher copper in the water would mean more copper would be removed."
No, the tank water values varied from 0.0004ppm as the low to 0.038ppm as the high. I'm not a scientist but I didn't see any correlation between water copper level and algae copper level. I'll try to find the raw data again and look. The sample size was too small so there could be a link that this study just didn't show. There was a very definate link for other elements though, especially Iodine, Aluminum & Iron so Caulerpa is very successful at removing those elements.
"3) if the tanks used tap water and were successful my point is already proven."
This would require a new study. The participants that used tap water had extreme levels of copper. But, there are other factors that could contribute to Copper levels including Salt mix, and any fish food that contains chiton from crustaceans.
"4) if the tanks used ro/di water then where did the .024 ppm copper come from? Unless ro/di does not remove copper."
RO/DI removes Copper. Copper is added mostly through tap water, salt mix and/or fish food.
"And all reef tanks I have seen here are teaming with plant life.
"
You must be referring to Coralline because most of the reef tanks in the picture contest didn't have any macro algae showing in the picture. Perhaps there's a smudge on your glasses that looks like a plant when you're viewing pictures of reef tanks. :D
We're just going to have to disagree on this issue Bob and that's OK. In my experience Tap water doesn't work for reef tanks and in your experience it works fine if you have a lot of algae as well.
What types of corals are you keeping? Perhaps that's a factor. Maybe the types of corals you keep do better with the elements provided by tap water?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Cincyreefer:
Thanks for the correction on O2.. got carried away there.
My whole point is that nothing in the aquarium hobby is 100% safe. Bob is advocating plant life over mechanical means as a safe way to avoid breakdowns.
I just wanted to remind everyone on the thread that even using plants has some hypothetical dangers.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by beaslbob
Without knowing the amount of copper being added to the system you can not make any conculsions about the filtering capabilities of anything in the system.

I disagree, but as I said, I'm no scientist.
From my perspective:
The average aquarium in the sample had almost 100 times more copper than natural sea water. The Caulerpa harvested didn't remove very much. To me this indicates it is not an efficient way to remove excess Copper.
Why does it matter how much Copper is being added to the system?
If someone has excess Copper and they place a polyfilter in their system so that tank water is forced through the filter pad then the copper level of the water will drop to undetectable levels in 24 hours.
From my perspective that's an efficient way to remove Copper.
 

reefnut

Active Member

Originally posted by beaslbob
Reef glad to see you are finally admitting that a cornerstone of this method is "light bioload"
Is has been my assertion that plant life allows you to maintain more livestock. Glad you agree with that point.
if you want less livestock (light bioload) then your tank your system. I just want more.

whatever. You want a tank filled with nasty algae... then your tank your system. I just want a clean tank.
 

overanalyzer

Active Member
OK I held off long enough .....
I agree with Bang's balanced approach - but I am also starting a 20 gallon lagoon tank that has manatee grass and shoal grass, 1 shaving brush and some halimeda but no skimmer. So I will be running two different tanks with two different filter systems .....so I think plants have a place in certain types of tanks....
Using tap water - IMO - is a poor substitute for using RO or RO/DI water.
Why?
1. Potential unknowns
2. Existing tank filtration is being incrementally required to filter more and more as the filter is used up (or absorbtion capacity is reached)
3. Nuisance Algea explosion
1 - potential unknowns - do you know exactly what is in yourtap water?? Do you want to risk the money spent on LR, Corals/inverts and fish on unknowns?? Maybe on a $2.00 guppy but not a $20.00 clown
2. As your tank filters work they either handle the bioload or they absorb the chemicals. As you use tap water for top off your tank's filtration will not keep up on a 1:1 ratio of filatrion:new detrimental element. To keep up with algea alone you would have to harvest and add new macro algea on a regular basis ....
3. with nuisance algea (hair, what not) tap water acts like a fertiization/food source. Granted adding macro's will eventually outcompete the nuisance algea, but macro algea in and of itself can become a nuisance algea. Macro algea can spread it's roots through LR and potentially ruin the LR for use in a reef tank.
Your tank therefore your choice. If you use tap water then please use massive amounts of tank filtration!
OK what is this about Bob changing his mind about lighting?? :scared:
 

reefnut

Active Member
Reef: you are just plain wrong. Been known to happen.
My tanks are just a clean as yours

That's a matter of opinion.
Sorry you consider his halimedia nasty.

I never mentioned crazyreefnut's tank, you did.
And you say all that while you maintain a refugium full of plant life.

Yep, and I'll say it again. "Everyone knows "plant life" or algae is a useful form of filtration. But it is not the only important form. RO/DI water, skimmers, LR, LS, water changes, light bio-load, etc are also equally important. IMO, it’s better to be pro-active than re-active."
I hope people starting out in this hobby can see through all that.

As do I.
meanwhile you don't know if 1% of your tank is maintained by ro/di and 1% is maintained by water changes and 98% is maintained by the plant life. but if you want to limit your bioload that is your tank.

It doesn't matter to me what % each is helping. What matters is the end results and mine are 0 nitrates which is a lot more than you can say...

BTW, what I meant by light bio-load is simply not overstocking the tank. IMO, my tank is pushing the limits of "recommended" fish compared to the size of tank.
 

bang guy

Moderator
In closing I was extrordinarily happy to see that Caulerpa serrulata was quite efficient at removing Sulfur :D The caulerpa tested was 800ppm Sulfur. So, it's VERY VERY good at removing Sulfur.
This means that using Magnesium sulfate for increasing Magnesium does not have to result it a permanently high Sulfur level.

Bob - I also like Halimeda. I think it's nice to look at and does not harm corals growing around it. It sure sucks down a lot of Carbonate though.
 
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