Are you still tithing during the recession?

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2940611
Great analogies journey. Unfortunately, this report is more the norm than the exception. You just choose to ignore it.....
That's absurd Bionic.. there are hundreds of thousands of churches, around the world. You link an article and say "this is the norm".
Just like you previously stating Pastor Hagee has no outside source of income; You are completely distorting the truth to try to promote your agenda.
What you choose to ignore is all of the good work churches quietly do, day after day.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2941022
This is where I don't understand your logic. If people are struggling just to pay their bills, why is it a good time to donate to a church? That is the point of this thread. I understand you get this spiritual rise and feeling of self worth when you do contribute to a church's cause. But is that feeling worth the possibility of losing your house, not putting food on your table, or having just the essentials needed to live? Spirituality is a wonderful thing, and can be the determining factor in whether some people choose to continue to live. But it doesn't pay the bills. That's where I don't see how a church would even accept tithing from someone who can't even keep up a quality standard of living. If they do, then they are just being hypocritical of their intended cause.
Maybe it isn't supposed to be a logical thing, but an ethical thing. Everyone is trying to stay afloat... even the church... and if the church is doing good, it's members want to see it stay afloat. I have been tithing in spite of the fact that i don't have a job... We get so little, and 10% really isn't going to make that much of a dent in my finances anyway. Plus, if everyone gives 10%, it doesn't mean a whole lot to each person, but it does add up for the church when everyone is doing it. A healthy church does good things for it's community. I am a testament to that.
Whether we kept the 10% or not, we haven't been able to afford the payments on my truck. I got a call from the loan company saying it was 92 days past due and they were going to be at my house at 4:00 to repossess it unless I provided them with a couple thousand dollars. I had to humble myself and call one of the big-wigs at the church, who made sure I had enough money to bring my truck payments current. For that, I am very thankful and I know that the church HAS and WILL help me in my time of need, which is personally why I give faithfully, all the more now that this has happened.
But a church that refuses to help it's community is not a church anyone should be a part of because if the church is to set the example, a fend-for-yourself attitude is not what God intended for us. However, the church DOES need to be good stewards of it's money, and that means they won't take over your monthly payments, but help you out as a one-time thing when it gets bad, like my scenario.

 

[tangman99]

One thing is a common fact no matter whether you are a church, charity, fund manager, whatever. Whenever you have a situation where a larger group of people willingly give money to a single person or small group of people, you are going to find people taking advantage of it for their own gain usually in the following manner.
One, you get a lot of people to give a little each making it add up so you get a lot. Second, you get them to give you the money by either taking advantage of their greed in making them think you are going to make them rich, make them feel guilty into feeling they need to give you the money or make them feel good about giving you the money.
Now my own observation of churches has been good and bad. The best I have attended was my own denomination of Catholic. Our priest was great. He married us and there was never pressure to give. Yes they mailed the envelopes but he himself always sent a personal message asking for 1% and more if you could. Then there were the churches that always preached the fire and brimstone right before collection time. Made you feel like you were going straight to hell in a handbasket if you didn't dig deep. What discusted me was looking around the room and seeing hands in the air and people eating this stuff up. Sorry, but it was all BS to me.
Now, obviously most churches, charities, etc are legitimate and whatever makes you feel good, I'm happy for you. I choose to bypass the middleman and give directly to charities that I have taken the time to make sure are using my donations wisely.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by Jimmy 4
http:///forum/post/2940699
...I have no faith in man.

An excellent reason to trust in God.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/what2bxn.html
"Living the Christian life is not comprised of going through the motions of repetitive religious rituals. Nor is it the legalistic keeping of behavioral rules and regulations in conformity to an ethical morality. Ecclesiastical involvement is not the essence of Christian living either; not church attendance, participating in religious programs, or tithing ten-percent of one's income."

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2941031
That's absurd Bionic.. there are hundreds of thousands of churches, around the world. You link an article and say "this is the norm".
Just like you previously stating Pastor Hagee has no outside source of income; You are completely distorting the truth to try to promote your agenda.
What you choose to ignore is all of the good work churches quietly do, day after day.
I have no agenda to distort. You make it sound like this San Antonio pastor is an isolated case. These mega church conglomerates have been shown time and time again to be corrupt. I never said all churches literally steal from their 'flock'. I know of many small and medium-sized churches that are very honest, take care of not only their members, and accepts anyone who wants their help or guidance. It's not the 'mom and pop' churches I'm chastising. It's these 'made for profit' churches like Hagee's I don't agree with and condemn.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2941225
Maybe it isn't supposed to be a logical thing, but an ethical thing. Everyone is trying to stay afloat... even the church... and if the church is doing good, it's members want to see it stay afloat. I have been tithing in spite of the fact that i don't have a job... We get so little, and 10% really isn't going to make that much of a dent in my finances anyway. Plus, if everyone gives 10%, it doesn't mean a whole lot to each person, but it does add up for the church when everyone is doing it. A healthy church does good things for it's community. I am a testament to that.
Whether we kept the 10% or not, we haven't been able to afford the payments on my truck. I got a call from the loan company saying it was 92 days past due and they were going to be at my house at 4:00 to repossess it unless I provided them with a couple thousand dollars. I had to humble myself and call one of the big-wigs at the church, who made sure I had enough money to bring my truck payments current. For that, I am very thankful and I know that the church HAS and WILL help me in my time of need, which is personally why I give faithfully, all the more now that this has happened.
But a church that refuses to help it's community is not a church anyone should be a part of because if the church is to set the example, a fend-for-yourself attitude is not what God intended for us. However, the church DOES need to be good stewards of it's money, and that means they won't take over your monthly payments, but help you out as a one-time thing when it gets bad, like my scenario.
Nick, your church should be commended for their actions. It is a perfect example of what a church should be and represent.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2941470
I have no agenda to distort. You make it sound like this San Antonio pastor is an isolated case. These mega church conglomerates have been shown time and time again to be corrupt. I never said all churches literally steal from their 'flock'. I know of many small and medium-sized churches that are very honest, take care of not only their members, and accepts anyone who wants their help or guidance. It's not the 'mom and pop' churches I'm chastising. It's these 'made for profit' churches like Hagee's I don't agree with and condemn.

Yet I am taking your whole point to be that people should not give to a church in your point of view. As I pointed out Charities have bad apples a well, yet you didn't see me telkling people to not give to charities and give to the churches instead, You on the other hand are trying to make the case to not tithe but give to charities.
While on occasion mega-church organizations due mismanage money, there are many charities that do this as well. I know one personally for animal rescue that the 4 members of their board make 6 figures a year. 50% of the donations go to salaries. That means 50% of you donation goes to the actual well being of the animal.
If it is the norm in the church as you say, it is also the norm in charities. The difference, charities have government backing.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2941679
Yet I am taking your whole point to be that people should not give to a church in your point of view. As I pointed out Charities have bad apples a well, yet you didn't see me telkling people to not give to charities and give to the churches instead, You on the other hand are trying to make the case to not tithe but give to charities.
While on occasion mega-church organizations due mismanage money, there are many charities that do this as well. I know one personally for animal rescue that the 4 members of their board make 6 figures a year. 50% of the donations go to salaries. That means 50% of you donation goes to the actual well being of the animal.
If it is the norm in the church as you say, it is also the norm in charities. The difference, charities have government backing.
I completely agree that many charities are corrupt. I remember getting the numerous calls from a local "Bexar County Sheriff's Relief Fund" looking for donations to assist needy families in our area. They were found to be one of these 'phone banks' that collected all this cash from unsuspecting people, and got away with it because they did give 3 PERCENT of the money to a viable charity. The Bexar County Sheriff's Dept. tried to sue them for using their name, but got nowhere with it.
The whole point I'm trying to make is I don't see the logic behind donating to a church if you as an individual are struggling financially. I'm not saying all churches are corrupt (case in point, Nick's church). But my experience with the mega churches in my area is that they all pretty much have a single agenda - bilk the patrons for all they can get, and only give a portion back to justify their cause. If that's not the case for these big church conglomerates you know of, then good for them.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2941735
The whole point I'm trying to make is I don't see the logic behind donating to a church if you as an individual are struggling financially.
Here is the reason why some do it. (Go based off family experience when I was younger). My father was far from well off. Money was always tight. But they realized there are others in the church less fortunate. And while we were barely making ends meet, there were families that weren't. So if it cost us a good meal one night and having to suffer through macaroni and cheese again or spaghetti (which both are cheap to make) just so another family could receive some relief it was worth it.
People that don't have the money don't put in usually. Those that still do anyway, do so because they want to.
The thing you have to remember is these people CHOOSE to give. No one forces them. The pastor (while I agree it is wrong) that MAY guilt them into it is not forcing them to. Owning a business I get a lot of calls from charities asking for a donation, atleast 3 different ones a week. I can't give money to all, but the people on the other end are real good at laying on the guilt while on the phone with you...even so much as saying "you can't even afford 5 dollars?". If I gave everyone 5 dollars that asked for it, i would go out of business.
The point, charities and churches ask even during financially rough times. Neither may not know your financial situation, but both can lay on the guilt to get your donation.
The one thing I do notice, I have only had one church call my business for a donation, and I would get advertising in their weekly newsletter in compensation. I can't even begin to count the number of various charities that have called me.
You ask why people give to their church when they can't afford to. It is the same reason a person that makes 33,000 a year buys a 250,000 dollar home. Because they want to.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2941800
People that don't have the money don't put in usually. Those that still do anyway, do so because they want to.

Yes, yes, yes. I give because I want to. I want to give.

 

[reefraff]

In giving to any charity you gotta do a little homework. I wont give a dime to organized religious organizations. Giving to individuals doing mission work or to a specific program members of a church are working on is a different story.
As an example look at the wrong reverend wright's church. They give him a mansion to retire in. If the church were to purchase a nice condo for him or even a nice house how much more could they do for the poor and downtrodden? Sorry but while reverends earn their pay the mansion they are supposed to be earning is in heaven, not Illinois.