bheron copper in tap water

[blackomne]

Here they be so far.
Tap Water (Source a reservoir near town fed by springs. First Group to recieve the water after processing)
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 5.0
PH 7.6
Alkalinity 6
TDS = 180
Standing Water (Tap water left for 24 hours)
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 5.0
PH 7.6
Alkalinity 5
Pur Filtered Water
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.0
PH 7.8
Alkalinity 5
Bottled Water (culligan 5 gallon)
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.0
PH 6.8
Alkalinity 1
DI Filtered (Yes the Cheap Tap Water Filter seen on the web)
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.0
PH 6.4
Alkalinity 0-1 very little reaction.
TDS = 45
I was hoping to add Copper, RO, RO/DI, and some more tap sources. But they can be added later.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by Lestregus
beaslbob - "First removing all copper is not necessary nor desirable."
:scared: i can not believe you just said that...this is the most ridiculous thing that i think i have ever heard *anyone* including you say about salt water aquariums. To inverts copper is on of the most toxic substances you can have in your tank. before reading this last post i thought that you actually believed the stuff that you preached...now you have even lost that little bit of respect.. i think a mod should remove bob's last post, and if i were a mod i would remove him and ban his entire IP cluster.
again a case of running scared and over stating. the theraputic levels of copper are .15 ppm (reference copper treating systems). At that level ich dies and inverts also. After a google search I uncovered that upper limits for environmental concerns in the ocean is 3.1 PPB or .0031 ppm. Or as bang stated .002ppm is the NSW value. So inverts start living and thriving somewhere betweeen .15 ppm and .002 ppm.
Some reports of the effectiveness of plant life from this board and others: "my nano went from 5 ppm nitrate to 0 in a day with a single baby shaving brush. " " my nitrAtes went from ~10ppm to 0.0 in two weeks". My own experience my nitrates went from 160++ppm to 0.0 in three weeks.
So it is obvious that plant life can reduce nitrates in the order of 20 ppm/week. But even taking the 5 ppm, That is a continuous process. Copper is only added by adding new water. It makes total sense that 1ppm of copper would be trapped in the cells of the plant life that sucked in, consumed 5ppm of nitrates per week and then expelled the nitrate free water. Even if it didn't happen in a week, over several weeks there is no doubt in my mine it would.
So do you need copper in salt tanks. Yes. Do you have to add copper to get to that level no. And plant life filter out high levels of copper in tap water. yes.
And is the removal of copper from tap water essentually removeing "all" the copper. Probably.
Do we have to worry about any copper having ever been in a saltwater tank. No. Just get the plant life flourshing.

 

[blackomne]

I was expecting at least a WOW

 

[jedininja]

Even in a single thread you contradict yourself Bob. First you advise doing all these things to get the copper out of your water such as running your watrer and such, but why would you need to do that if you "dont have to worry about it. Just get plant life flourishing." Do you really think that plants can make copper harmless within minutes? Because that is the amount of time those levels of copper would need to start killing your inverts.
And you always bring up the fact that you brought nitrates from 160 down to 0 within 3 weeks. Who really cares. Even if that is accurate, that is in a macro algae culture tank. There is nothing producing nitrates and the tank is full of plants. That is not a reef tank or even a fish tank. Its an algae tank, nothing more. It has no relevance to other systems. What does have relevance is your main tank and how it took forever to reduce nitrates, which I dont even know if are at 0 even now. Last time you posted a few weeks ago, it was at 20, and almost 2 months before that, it was at 40. So it took over a month to reduce it down 20, which is quite ciontractory of what you preach.
Whever someone contradicts what you preach, you bring up irrelevant points to prove yourself. Get a clue and do some real research and testing. Stop relying on google searches where you misrepresent all the information you find. Its the difference between reading and knowing. You may read a lot of info, but know very little since you have expericened very little.

 

[beaslbob]

jedininja
The real problem is you don't accept what I post. I will let others read my posts and determine whether or not I am consistant.
What is important is there are ways to reduce copper in tap water.
and plant life filters out copper, other heavy ions, and toxins.

 

[blackomne]

and plant life filters out copper, other heavy ions, and toxins.
Not to jump on Bob but those toxins the plant is filtering out stays in the plants. If that plant dies or is eaten by another organism the toxins are re-released into the system. They are not disappearing they are simply locked away were you can't read them. I do want to ask Bob what is the source of your tap water. You might know or you can get that information from your water company.
As For my reading I was surprised at the results from the pur water filter. All it did was remove nitrates. Not as good a filter as they make it out to be. The culligan water I knew was filtered well but it still has some amounts of minerals etc for taste.:happyfish

 

[birdy]

blackome- you should also test those samples with a TDS meter, that will give you a better reading of the crud in all those water sources.

 

[blackomne]

Ordered one it should be here shortly. Plus I am looking for a Copper test probably have to order it off the internet. But I will repost the results after the tests are done.

 

[birdy]

looking forward to hearing the results

 

[schneidts]

plant life filters out copper, other heavy ions, and toxins
At what rate, how effectively, what other heavy ions and toxins, and how can you keep them from being released back into the water when they die or go sexual? A recent study was done at Melbourne University to determine the effects of copper on the growth and reproduction of corals, where various samples of coral were taken from the Great Barrier Reef. Some were placed in "clean" seawater with copper levels of 2 to 3 ppb. Some placed in water containing 5 ppb and more placed in water with Cu at 30 ppb. Though the levels had no effect on the number of larvae produced, at 5 ppb the # that made it to the juvenile stage were 30% fewer, furthermore, at 30 ppb the # that made it to juvenile were 70% less. The ones that did make it to the juvenile stage took much longer to grow than the ones in "clean" seawater. Just wanted to share.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by blackomne
Not to jump on Bob but those toxins the plant is filtering out stays in the plants. If that plant dies or is eaten by another organism the toxins are re-released into the system. They are not disappearing they are simply locked away were you can't read them.

Absolutely correct. If 100% of the plants die or are eaten you have problems besides the release of toxins. Most people will remove plant growth the blocks the view of their fish/corals.
I do want to ask Bob what is the source of your tap water. You might know or you can get that information from your water company.

Currently it is the harvest monrovia water authority west of huntsville, al. previously in bout 1/2 dozen cities in the US. Water authority here reported something like 60ppm calcium and 30-50ppm mag. Huntsville reported 100ppm calcium carbonate.
As For my reading I was surprised at the results from the pur water filter. All it did was remove nitrates. Not as good a filter as they make it out to be. The culligan water I knew was filtered well but it still has some amounts of minerals etc for taste.:happyfish
It was interesting and informative.
basically all the pur filter did was remove plant food.
Even more interesting would be calcium/calcium carbonate, mag levels. ammonia, nitrate and phosphate is just plant food.

 

[blackomne]

Some were placed in "clean" seawater with copper levels of 2 to 3 ppb. Some placed in water containing 5 ppb and more placed in water with Cu at 30 ppb. Though the levels had no effect on the number of larvae produced, at 5 ppb the # that made it to the juvenile stage were 30% fewer, furthermore, at 30 ppb the # that made it to juvenile were 70% less.
Really makes sense. And to think most of this nation uses copper for plumbing. I am reminded of Rome and its lead pipes. I wonder what effect that copper has on us.

 

[jedininja]

Bob, I dont accept what you write because you do not speak from experiece. Reading stuff off of google means nothing to me. how do you know how good the sources are.
But you dont think about the consequences for someone else when you give adivce. You tell them to have plant life to take out the coper without even knowing how long it takes for the plants to use up the copper. And what if your inverts eat the plants with all the copper in it?
And worst of all, you are always contradicting yourself. And when someone points it out, you just say you'll fix it. But that means you were either wrong or lying in your posts to have those contractions.

 

[blackomne]

Currently it is the harvest monrovia water authority west of huntsville, al. previously in bout 1/2 dozen cities in the US. Water authority here reported something like 60ppm calcium and 30-50ppm mag. Huntsville reported 100ppm calcium carbonate
Interesting what the levels of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc. And is the harvest monrovia water authority an aguafier, a lake, a spring, river, water shed, etc
Also you said earlier in one of your posts that you have two tanks. Do you add tap to the algae tank and then siphon off that water to the display. Or do you add tap to both.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by schneidts
plant life filters out copper, other heavy ions, and toxins
At what rate, how effectively, what other heavy ions and toxins, and how can you keep them from being released back into the water when they die or go sexual? A recent study was done at Melbourne University to determine the effects of copper on the growth and reproduction of corals, where various samples of coral were taken from the Great Barrier Reef. Some were placed in "clean" seawater with copper levels of 2 to 3 ppb. Some placed in water containing 5 ppb and more placed in water with Cu at 30 ppb. Though the levels had no effect on the number of larvae produced, at 5 ppb the # that made it to the juvenile stage were 30% fewer, furthermore, at 30 ppb the # that made it to juvenile were 70% less. The ones that did make it to the juvenile stage took much longer to grow than the ones in "clean" seawater. Just wanted to share.
thanks.

 

[schneidts]

anytime

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by blackomne
Interesting what the levels of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc.

basically don't care. All of those are just plant food. The etcs were down in the parts per billion.
And is the harvest monrovia water authority an aguafier, a lake, a spring, river, water shed, etc

Just called to confirm, its well water.
Also you said earlier in one of your posts that you have two tanks. Do you add tap to the algae tank and then siphon off that water to the display. Or do you add tap to both.
I add tap water directly to all tanks. Right now that is the macro cluture, 55g display, 10g FW, and the back porch 65 Quart Tub.

 

[blackomne]

Just called to confirm, its well water.
That makes sense its an aquafier , natural filtered ground water. Except in cases of seasonal runoff, the runoff produces variances in the water quality. Usually well water is a better quality water then surface water but at the same time it is a harder water more TDS. Plants would like that well water is used a lot in arrigation.
Do you get seasonal variances?

 

[bheron]

Man, good stuff here.Bob, some answers to your questions below. However, I have to agree with jedininja in that, after all of these posts, I’m still not sure what you’re saying. Youre statements seem to jump back and forth and contradict each other. While you may be right in what you’re saying, none of it is as conclusive and clear as what the majority are saying. Some comments…:
First removing all copper is not necessary nor desirable. If you want to see copper in water stir you ro/di with a copper wire. – no idea what you mean here? Please explain.
Now lets summarize what you did.
you failed with a tank that used tap water and not plant life. – true. But lets be clear – copper failed my tank, not the lack of plant life. While it plants may have helped remove some copper, it would’ve happened gradually and after it killed everything. So why would I want copper in there?
You are succeeding with a tank that uses ro/di water and plant life. – not entirely true. My tank has been up and running for about three months. Added plant life (chaeto) about 3 weeks ago.
Do you see where I am comming from? Your experience does not mean your tap water was at fault. Your second system will be much better because of the plant life. I do not
It is my firm opinion that the plant life not the input water will make the difference. Especially, with the way you used your original tap water. – this opinion, I know . Just am not clear why.
I predict that you will have to dose calcium and many other things to keep you ph alk and calcium, mag in line. That is directly tied to the input water being stripped of those essential trace elements. – I can see this
Further, you have no assurance that water at at the local department store meets any federal standards. Or that the machine's filters are ever replaced or are functioning. Plus with no clorine it may be loaded with all types or desease causing bacteria.
I wish you the best tank ever. And to answer your original question for the board. It is my position the copper and other heavy ions are filtered out by plants. Further that tap water contains many beneficial trace elements and plant food to insure a successful reef or FO tank. And of course it helps to use the cold water, in newer construction and run the water for a minute to flush out the pipes. And not to use a garden hose as well.
edit: just reread your long post. I see that now you are using an ro/di unit. And not using the target water. So now you have the ro/di unit itself to worry about. Another thing in the system to fail. Just be sure you check the membrains, aerate the water, don't get any houshold cleaners in the collected water and so on. All of which is avoided by using tap. – very true. But would rather do that than wait for my plants to do the work, if they do at all. I would rather have direct control over the removal of copper.
Two things to ad::
1) I’ll go dig up the test results and post them on here.
2) If anyone thinks it’s a good idea, I’ll run a test of my tap water with some chaeto to see if it removes copper. Basically, I’ll take a certain amount of my tap water, and place whatever amount you, bob, think I should place of chaeto inside the jar. Then, I’ll just let it sit and see how long it takes to remove the copper.
I’m not a scientist, so let me know if anyone thinks this simple test would answer the debate over plants removing copper from tap water.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by blackomne
That makes sense its an aquafier , natural filtered ground water. Except in cases of seasonal runoff, the runoff produces variances in the water quality. Usually well water is a better quality water then surface water but at the same time it is a harder water more TDS. Plants would like that well water is used a lot in irrigation.
Do you get seasonal variances?
Gee 21st century filtration :jumping:
I presume I get seasonal variances. After all the scientist/engineer in my says nothing is constant. But who cares? By eatablishing plant life as the first thing the first total volumn is processed by the plants before the livestock is added. Then by replacing evaporative water only, about 10% is evaporated and new water is added each week. So 100% is initially processed and from that point on only about 10% needs to be processed (from whatever is added by the water). Meanwhile, the bioload has buildup plant food easily in the 20-40 or more ppm each week. So we have a system processing 20ppm (ammonia, nitrates or phosphates) with 1ppm/10 or .1ppm of something. Seems to me the plant can easily filter out that .1ppm. And being as they are growing so fast and over taking the display, you have to remove a bunch to see the fish and corals. Or they are in a refugium and livestock can not eat them anyway.
This is just common sense to me. Based upon several fw tanks since the late 70's. and about 10 years in two cities with salt tanks. Including 6 years of continuous running of both.