bheron copper in tap water

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by dburr
This may be your experience and others experiance, but how can you prove it was the plants? Was their a DSB in any/all the tanks? What did the others use for top off?
Their are to many variables. This will never be solved without an experiment done over the course aleast a few months maybe years. Again without an experiment...... Common sense to you, but newbies don't know about common sense when it comes to salt water. They are here to learn and you post your thoughts they take it for fact ,IMO, not the exception the the rule. Others are posting main stream ideas that have worked for alot of people not the exception.
When a brand new tank goes from 160++ppm nitrates to 0.0 in three weeks, using HD play sand, no circulation, no skimmer, no filtration other than the plant life Is a good enough experiement for me.
6 years of continuous operation with a only a UGF (not being cleaned) and allowing the hair algae to build up. Is a good enough experiement to me.
People running tanks here for 6-8 months with hair algae blooms, removal of that with cleaner crews, sickly fish, high nitrates, with nitrates going to 0.0, in weeks, no more hair algae, and much healthier fish, is a good enough experiment to me.
Now how do you know it was the DSB and not the plant life algae in your system? Did you run your system with no plant life at all. No even hair/slime/corriline algae, no cyano bacteria? Did that system have an active bioload of at least 1" of fish /10gallons.
So turn about is fair play. How do you know it is your DSB and not that plant life in your systems? How do you know it was the LR and not the plant life? How do you know it was the skimmer and not the plant life?
You see before I recommend these things to newbies I have added plant life and only the plant life. So I know it is just the plant life.

 

[007]

Originally posted by beaslbob
When a brand new tank goes from 160++ppm nitrates . .
What test kit were you using to get such a high reading? My kits only go up to 20.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by 007
Lets go back to some good old fashioned logic here . . . .
If A then B.
A
___________
Therefore B
If you use the conventional methodes you will be unsuccessful at keeping a marine tank. (taken from above post by beaslbob)
Bang Guy uses the conventional methods.
Therefore Bang Guy must be unsuccessful at keeping marine tanks.
I am not going to argue with you anymore bob, I just want to point out to all those following your threads that your logic is consistently flawed . . .
It is my opinion that bang (and others) are sucessful after establishing thriving planf life. Sure years and years later with the plant life thriving "conventioanal" methods are highly sucessful. If the newbie establishes the plant life, the system is sucessful earlier and requires less maintenance.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by 007
What test kit were you using to get such a high reading? My kits only go up to 20.
It was an aquarium pharm.... and it is extremely hard to read above say 80ppm or so. It was in the very solid red in the test though. I have since confirmed that another test kit (the fast test) reads (i think) nitrogen nitrates which are lower by a factor of 4.4 from the total nitrAtes tested with the aquarium pharm...
I just got a fast test and tetra tec and compared the three. Fast test read 0-20 ppm (no3-N), arquarium pharm... 40 (total), and tetra tec ~60(total). So I now suspect there is still some unreliability but the main difference is what is being read (or in this case red )
They were 160++ppm (or at least very very high) because the tank was originally set up as a hospital tank and a fish was in there for 3 days and badly decomposed when I returned. Three weeks later after adding sand and macros, nitrates were in the light yellow of 0-5ppm.
The fact it was originally set up as a hospital tank should be a hint. After using it as a macro algae culture tank, the fish in the display were much healthier.:thinking:

 

[bheron]

Wow. I go away for a weekend and look what's happened. I guess now surprise.
Let's get back to the basics here and see if we can simplify this please:
First, I dug up the report from my Water Company here in SE PA. The official number taken from "one" of my faucets (the one where I was doing topoffs) had a Copper reading of: 1.60
The report went on to state that it varied around the house and was at 1.00 at the street hydrant, so that it was probably the fixture I was using that was causing the high 1.60 reading. Bummer. But, bottom line, my tank had a very high level of copper.
So, to simplify, a coupe of items:
Bob, I've read all your posts. Could you please supply me with one simple statement (1 or 2 sentences) on your position on Copper?
I will then abstract this whole thread along with information obtained previously, and put them into one consolidation of opinions.
Finally, I am going to run one, simple test to determine if plants can remove copper from the same tap water that I beleived to ruin my tank. I'll outline the details shortly.
Thanks all!

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by bheron
Wow. I go away for a weekend and look what's happened. I guess now surprise.

missed a good time.
Let's get back to the basics here and see if we can simplify this please:
...
So, to simplify, a coupe of items:
Bob, I've read all your posts. Could you please supply me with one simple statement (1 or 2 sentences) on your position on Copper?

same as everything else:
to keep it simple:
1) use cold water and let it run for a minute to flush out the pipes
2) add sand, saltwater, some circulation,lights, and macros/plants. Get the plants thriving for a week.
then do the rest. (hope I am allowed three sentences)
Finally, I am going to run one, simple test to determine if plants can remove copper from the same tap water that I beleived to ruin my tank. I'll outline the details shortly.
Thanks all!
let us know how it comes out.

 

[dburr]

OK, I relize I am alittle off the copper subject and I apologize.
When a brand new tank goes from 160++ppm nitrates to 0.0 in three weeks, using HD play sand, no circulation, no skimmer, no filtration other than the plant life Is a good enough experiement for me.
Nitrogen cycle: ammonia>nitrite>nitrate>nitrogen gas. Bubbles out of the tank with a DSB. Yes if you have plants it will be taken up slowly. Yes a DSB it will be converted slowly. Both, well a little faster, eh.

Now how do you know it was the DSB and not the plant life algae in your system? Did you run your system with no plant life at all. No even hair/slime/corriline algae, no cyano bacteria? Did that system have an active bioload of at least 1" of fish /10gallons.
Good question. My answer is that I didn't start up a refuge at first. I had a plenum and I used TAP WATER.

It was ok at first, just a little hair not much. I set up a new tank with a DSB and a refuge. Only problem was my lights weren't strong enough to grow plants. 6/8 months trying to grow them with no luck. My hair was still hanging around but still very little. I finally got some PC's for the refuge. Macro's growing but still had hair. When I finally setup my present tank this past june the hair never returned. I did start using my RO/DI at that time also.
Point is, having both is the best bet along with controling what goes is as far as water quality. But this is my system and every one is different. This is my experiance.
So turn about is fair play. How do you know it is your DSB and not that plant life in your systems? How do you know it was the LR and not the plant life? How do you know it was the skimmer and not the plant life?
I can't answer all but the skimmer. I didn't have one. BTW, since you asked, can you answer these honestly?
You see before I recommend these things to newbies I have added plant life and only the plant life. So I know it is just the plant life.
Yes, OK, you only added plant life. But you can't think that and only that did it. You don't think it could have been a combonation(sp) of things going on? Perhaps you just tipped the scale over to winning.
You know what, if you honestly believe what you say, great. But don't think it will work for all. To many veriables.:yes: The more diversified the better. That works in most cases.

 

[cincyreefer]

Experiment sounds good bheron, but can be very difficult to actually mean anything. Keep us updated.

 

[blackomne]

Effects of Copper on freshwater and saltwater.
http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/criteria/copper
There is more on Zinc and Barium under the Tap water Comparision in the Reef Discussion thread.

 

[soccer4life94]

The thing that gets me about this whole thing is it doesnt make sense. You say add copper or elements that contain copper in your system and your plant life will filter it out. My main problem with this is why do it at all if you dont have too. Nothing you have said really means much at all. Copper is deadly to a reef tank. Especially a newbie like myself who doesnt know much about it. I know that just because you can fix something doesnt mean you should keep breaking it. How many times can you get bit by the dog before you learn not to pet it. As a newbie here I can tell you what I have learned and how easily one can be influenced. I have been buying parts for my tank for many many months now so that I can do this right. I was lured by your claims of a cheap and quick SWT setup at first. I thought things out though. If you are so right, then how come EVERY LFS that I have ever gone too, and I have been to quite a few, has the "conventional" setup. No one has setups like yours. So now I see that LFS obviously dont agree with your techniques, majority of reefers on here don't see your meathods as working. The local reefers here help a meeting and had a big-wig reefer, not sure of his name, and i asked him about doing things your way. He said that meathod has been disproved time and time again and its a relic of the old Reef keeping age. With all the work, time, and money that this hobby takes from a person, having new people start with a way that has a high chance of failure increases the chances they will drop out. I really hold to the posts that have circulated time and time again on here. I would like to see updated photos of your tank. If in deed your meathods are cheap and they work and produce a tank such as Steve's then by god I want to see it. You try to portray yourself as a Veteran Reefer. Well, please show me your battle scars. Show me your tank. In that whole put or ... post the thing that blew me away is as soon as everyone said to show your tank you disappeared. never seen in that post again. All I see is a pic that was posted long ago of your tank. Please, as a newbie. Im asking you to show me your methods. Please post a new, current pic of your tank. As they say, Lead by example. Can I see your example? Thanks and Im sorry for posting such a long reply.

 

[beaslbob]

gee i guess that was addresses to me.

It is not suprising why LFS and the industry doesn't tell you of these time honored and proven techniques. After all why tell people of easy methods when rocks being quarried for$10/ton can be sold for $10/pound. And either is capable of producing excellent tanks.
Sure it doesn't make sense. The currently in vougue methods are all you have heard. But even now people are reporting some problems with DSBs. Hmmmmm not a year or two ago.
When you have seen things come into vougue then fall out of favor a few times you will understand better. A few year ago it was plenums. Back in the early 80's resins were new. Don't see them today. UGFs were standard. Now not in favor. Yet tanks still can run for years with UGFs.
To me it is better to have the system process the waste products. In that way bumps along the road are easily handled instead of creating a whole series of new problems.
here is my system. If you don't like it tough. https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/101556/in-tank-back-wall-refugium
so:
While you are:
adjusting the skimmer,
empting the cup,
changing filter media,
collecting ro/di,
protecting the ro/di,
hoping you have enough ro/di for the next water change,
checking ro/di membrains.
changing the water,
dosing kalk, calcium, buffers, trace elements
adjusting the kalk dripper,
mixing up new kalk,
or wondering why your fish are breathing heavy
I'll be:
having dinner with the wife,
watching the grand kids transfixed by the tank,
visiting family,
and just enjoying my larger tank.
What I will not be doing is worring about every bump in the road (like copper) that comes along.

 

[soccer4life94]

I totally agree with you saying its good to have plants. I think you are very smart there. I can see the wisdom in that. What I cannot see is why you would want to put things in it just to put it in there. I mean if some copper gets in, your all set. Nice backup, but why add it on purpose? I am honestly wanting to know your methods. People say all we do is flame you. Well I am not here to flame you, Im here to have you explain it all out and see what i think. As for your picture. I know that pic. You post alot about how things evolve over time and how continued use make a better tank. I see that pic. I would like to see a comparison pic. A before and after. Something for me to compare and say....well he uses these methods and this is what they are given him...good or bad. If your going to tell everyone of these other methods then let me see the results. The only way you can show the results is to show before and after. Are you unable to post a new pic, or are you just unwilling? If you cant because you have no cam or something then its totally understandable, but it doesnt make much sense to be able to but just dont want too. What is it you dont wanna show me? Im here to learn. Im here to make a choice of how to run a tank. You say yours is the better time tested way. Can you please show me and not just tell me. Seeing is believing. Thanks bob.

 

[beaslbob]

first of all if you are interested you might try a new thread. I was hoping bheron would eventually report on his experiments sometime here.
I am not intentionally adding copper to my system. Or any other toxins. In fact I am taking measures to reduce copper and toxins. What I have simply found out over the years is that tap water from many sources is totally acceptable for any aquarium.
the thread has that picture and some after move pictures with the in tank back wall refug. Tanks is still a work in progress. Meanwhile the fish just look around and say "gee he changed something again"
I do have some things to make operation easier which I have not implemented. I will not post those unless I have made sure they are working.
but one thing I am reasonable sure of, is there was a 95% probability bheron did not have to go through what he did.
And I am 100% sure that I did not have to go through what I originally did on this tank. I hope newbies do not also.

 

[neoreef]

And that is what beaslbob says, bless his heart.
Newbies, rember to take more than one opinion.

 

[bheron]

BB - I havent forgot about this! Just a little behind.