BIO wheel!?

[aztec reef]

nah, The bad stuff in the biowheel is ammonia and nitrates even though it suppost to remove it, it doesn't do it that effeciently.
can you explain how it removes the Ammonia.(and where is the biowheel getting this ammonia that's removing)
if i recall, any reefer with a thriving tank shouldn't have any ammonia to REMOVE so what good will Biowheels do then. regarless of type of filtration.
Should we suggest for people to use a Biowheel over a Skimmer?

 

[aztec reef]

a biowheel is just a Wet-Dry fiter. who runs those still?

 

[michaeltx]

it designed to hold bacteria with the paper and it works great IMO for freshwater. I am still looking up stuff today to support or negate my ideals though. But in a reef or FOWLR tank I dont see a real point in it even if it didnt create the depedancy on it to keep it going I think in the long run it really serves no usefulness other than cause problems. because the tank is setup with enough items to hold and utilize the bacteria.
something else to think about on them lets just say that they do EVERYTHING they are supposed to very well here is another angle to look at on them..
I noticed on my 29 gallon tank I setup a few days ago I turn on the biowheel filter just to see what would happen as an experiment

and I am going to continue to use it untill I go to start sticking it with livestock.
and one thing that I have noticed right off the bat is that the biowheel causes micro bubbles because of the way it is designed another reason not to use one IMO most people that are actually useing them also use them as a first filter and setup a new tank by someone that has never had a SW tank and I have found that people forget to top off the tank as soon as it gets low on water the bubbles increase in the tank. Now its not like a skimmer going but its enough to pose the micro-bubble problem and a cause of even more salt creep to build up.
Just another perspective EVEN if does eveything its claimed to be,
Mike

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
nah, The bad stuff in the biowheel is ammonia and nitrates even though it suppost to remove it, it doesn't do it that effeciently.
bio wheels arent supposed to remove nitrates. they are supposed to allow bacteria to colonize it for biological break down. you really dont know what your saying. You need some serious researching. and who ever said anything about how efficient they were? I never claimed they were efficient in anyway, I just said they can enhance filtration never how much.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
can you explain how it removes the Ammonia.(and where is the biowheel getting this ammonia that's removing).
the ammonia is in your water, where do you think the ammonia comes from that your rock breaks down from? fish waste, excess food. If you need to ask where the ammonia is coming from you really dont know enough to be trying to refute the facts of biological breakdown (this is an observation not an insult) if its a serious question just go back and research the nitrogen cycle in aquariums. in an established aquarium with proper filtration you dont see the ammonia because it doesnt reach testable concentrations tht doesnt mean its not there, if there was no ammonia there would be no nitrites or trates. keeping concentrations below a testable level doesnt mean its not there.
it helps remove it because Ammonia in liquid form is a highly volatile liquid, evaporating to gas very easily and moving into surrounding atmosperic air because it is more stable in gaseous form. so the high air contact time that your water has while riding the biowheel lets it out into the room.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
if i recall, any reefer with a thriving tank shouldn't have any ammonia to REMOVE so what good will Biowheels do then. regarless of type of filtration.?
Again, are you serious? if you dont know the difference between untestable amounts and none then I cant really help you.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
Should we suggest for people to use a Biowheel over a Skimmer?
this is pointless, your tryin to find a hole where none exists. I never said throw away your skimmer or anything. Unfortunatly your just not grasping any part of this conversation and I am done explaining the basics of the nitrogen cycle.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by MichaelTX
it designed to hold bacteria with the paper and it works great IMO for freshwater. I am still looking up stuff today to support or negate my ideals though. But in a reef or FOWLR tank I dont see a real point in it even if it didnt create the depedancy on it to keep it going I think in the long run it really serves no usefulness other than cause problems. because the tank is setup with enough items to hold and utilize the bacteria.
they do work ok for freshwater. I agree if your tank has enough stuff like live rock and sand you dont need it, I have said this a half dozen times. if its your opinion its more hassle then its worth then there is no way I can refute that, the effort to maintain it outweighs the benifits to you. I support that 100%. to a begginner or even an advanced hobbyest, they might consider the offgassing and the oxygen exchange worth the maintinence, those are mearly matters of opinion. (I'm going to note I dont run one on any of my tanks fresh or salt)
Originally Posted by MichaelTX
something else to think about on them lets just say that they do EVERYTHING they are supposed to
I dont think they are as great as the hype says, I just dont think they are evil and need to be summarily pulled off tanks.
Originally Posted by MichaelTX
I noticed on my 29 gallon tank I setup a few days ago I turn on the biowheel filter just to see what would happen as an experiment

and I am going to continue to use it untill I go to start sticking it with livestock.
and one thing that I have noticed right off the bat is that the biowheel causes micro bubbles because of the way it is designed another reason not to use one IMO most people that are actually useing them also use them as a first filter and setup a new tank by someone that has never had a SW tank and I have found that people forget to top off the tank as soon as it gets low on water the bubbles increase in the tank. Now its not like a skimmer going but its enough to pose the micro-bubble problem and a cause of even more salt creep to build up.
Just another perspective EVEN if does eveything its claimed to be,
Mike
Now that is one valid reason to not use them. Micro bubbles in tank that would tick me off too.
Over all I'm not seeing any detrimental or tank crashing capabilities. honestly a sponge has more bio capacity than a biowheel, it just doesnt have the same direct water to air exchange rate. about the worst reviews I have found on them were they stop turning...... proper maintinence prevents that. its like throwing out a powerhead you have never cleaned because it stopped. its not because the power head is junk its because it wasnt maintained.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
a biowheel is just a Wet-Dry fiter. who runs those still?
I run wet dry's there are tons of marine aquariasts that run bioballs as part of their systems.

 

[aztec reef]

All your points defuse the Usefullness of the Biowheel. So why use it?
You don't have to explain the Denitrification process to me..

You're talking like the biowheel is a Great filter by itself. Honestly i think is a piece of crap and should be kept in Freshwater. Do you know why? cause in fresh water this type of Filtration IS the priority, there i can see a reason to have it..
But in salt water, sorry NO REASON.
DO YOU THINK THAT LITTLE PIECE OF PAPER is really doing much? It maybe but once it get's fully colonize what?it's worthless. unless you DON"T have the OTHER type of fitration.
You can run carbon 24/7 365. Will this help? Certainly, but is it recomended.?
If BIOWHEELS it's as good how you claim it to be, then why don't YOU use it?
IT SEEMS KIND OF IRONIC WHEN YOU'RE ALL FOR IT, BUT YET YOU DON'T RUN IT.

So pretty much that would mean that you're not talking from Experience, You are just going by Googleling and Reading guidelines. It is a good idea

. But is like READING a map, You get DIRECTIONS but you don't get the short cuts or dirtroads Lol.
I know where ammonia is but, Isn't that why people use LR,DSB,Skimmer,WC's to RID of it?

 

[luke01]

???

 

[mombostic]

I use the Penguin with the two bio-wheels. I give them a hearty shake in the tank water that I remove from the tank each week for water changes. I have good water quality, and my nitrates are <10, and that's what they are and have been for a while. The only time I had trouble with nitrates is when I had the crushed coral substrate. I have quite a few fish and I think the extra filtration is okay. It causes no harm in my tank at all. The only micro-bubbles in my tank are currently coming from that wonderful Aqua C Remora skimmer that I installed last month. The only time the filter puts out any bubbles is when the water level is below the bottom of the outflow, and that is simply caused by splashing.
I'm going to regret saying this, I'm sure, but I know the cause of all of my fish deaths, which have been very few compared to some of the posts I read on here, and none of them have been because of water quality or any other toxic conditions. So I think anyone who says the bio wheel is a piece of crap can think what they want, but I have good results with mine with minimal maintenance, zero noise, and little expense. These same two bio-wheels have been on a saltwater tank for going on three years.
When I posted a thread about stopping use of the filter cartridges that go with my filter, lots of people said ditch the bio-wheels, too, but I'm a FIRM believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" school of thought, and even more so now that I've installed this Remora skimmer on my tank. That's just my two cents!

 

[aztec reef]

Mombostic, that sounds like a dream... But You can Try this Experiment. Remove the biowheels for a month and you'll see that they won't be Missed...
Nothing would happend, if anything you might get Nitrates lower.
It all depends in allaround Filtration that you have..

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by Mombostic
When I posted a thread about stopping use of the filter cartridges that go with my filter, lots of people said ditch the bio-wheels, too, but I'm a FIRM believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" school of thought, and even more so now that I've installed this Remora skimmer on my tank. That's just my two cents!
In that case i would off kept the cartidges instead off the biowheel. Just Re-energize it evey month..and do your weekly rinse in saltwater, and your set..

 

[mombostic]

Actually people told me to get rid of both, not just the biowheels, just use the filter to run the carbon in.
It's not a dream, buddy, it's a reality. I've lost fish to stupid mistakes and a terrorist most commonly known as a three-stripe damsel, not to mention my three who dive bombed out of the tank. The one fish that just disappeared was a yellow tang that I stupidly bought from the LFS and was a pathetic thing that couldn't go past a power head without getting stuck to it. It's death was imminent. The only time I had water troubles was with that stupid crushed coral mess. I used to try to fool around with trace elements and stuff, but now I rely on my weekly water changes to do the trick. I DO NOT skimp on maintenance and I try not to crowd the tank.
I'm not much of an experiment kind of gal, not at the risk of a tank I've put so much time and effort--not to mention $$$$--into, but if nitrates ever become a problem, I'll keep your suggestion in mind!

 

[mombostic]

I also took some fish out and traded them for corals! As a matter of fact, my Xenia only did very well when I had the crushed coral and in the few weeks after I changed out, then it slowly started just sort of sitting there, then it even started shrinking back a little, so I traded it, too.
I would never just make up some fairy story to make a bio-wheel sound good or whatever. If something has sucked in my experience, I'll be the first to tell you about it.

 

[mombostic]

Everything in my tank is probably going to die tonight.

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by Mombostic
Everything in my tank is probably going to die tonight.
why?

 

[mombostic]

"Pride goeth before a fall."
I'm just bragging so I figure everything I said has "never" happened will now happen. That's how it works, right?

 

[aztec reef]

Nothing should happend Right?
Or that would make it "DEPENDABLE" which will prove my point...

 

[rbaldino]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
All your points defuse the Usefullness of the Biowheel. So why use it?
You don't have to explain the Denitrification process to me..

You're talking like the biowheel is a Great filter by itself. Honestly i think is a piece of crap and should be kept in Freshwater. Do you know why? cause in fresh water this type of Filtration IS the priority, there i can see a reason to have it..
But in salt water, sorry NO REASON.
DO YOU THINK THAT LITTLE PIECE OF PAPER is really doing much? It maybe but once it get's fully colonize what?it's worthless. unless you DON"T have the OTHER type of fitration.
You can run carbon 24/7 365. Will this help? Certainly, but is it recomended.?
If it's good how you claim it to be, then why don't YOU use it?
I know where ammonia is but, Isn't that why people use LR,DSB,WC's to RID of it?
I ran a biowheel on a saltwater tank long before I ever had any live rock and it worked out just fine. What do you think all those people with fish-only tanks use? What do you think fish stores use for their tanks? Obviously, some sort of biomedia, which is all the biowheel is. I also find the idea that a tank will become dependant on it if you also have live rock a bit silly. The bacteria colonies are always in a constant state of flux, growing nearly everywhere in a tank. The biowheel is just another place to grow, plus it will never be disturbed like a filter cartridge would be when you change out media.
Like a lot of equipment for saltwater tanks, you don't absolutely have to use it, nor is it going to cause a major problem if you choose to run it.

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by rbaldino
I ran a biowheel on a saltwater tank long before I ever had any live rock and it worked out just fine. What do you think all those people with fish-only tanks use? What do you think fish stores use for their tanks?
You just proved my point

Now imagine YOU or the LFS removing this biowheel. What will happend?

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
Mombostic, that sounds like a dream... But You can Try this Experiment. Remove the biowheels for a month and you'll see that they won't be Missed...
Nothing would happend, if anything you might get Nitrates lower.
It all depends in allaround Filtration that you have..
This is a contradiction, IMO. "Nothing would happen.....it depends on your all around filtration." If you all around filtration is insufficient, this advice could be catastrophic under certain circumstances.
I have had tremendous success with biowheels in both fresh and saltwater. I have never had ANY problems....A N Y problems with microbubbles. There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER why a good "freshwater" filter wouldn't work in saltwater. The only argument could be it has limited circulation all considering.
These filters have nothing to do with the function of skimmers. That is an apples and oranges comparison.
Ammonia is given off by all inhabitants of the tank. All tanks, even established, produce ammonia. You HOPEFULLY do not measure it if your tanks biological filter is large enough to use it...but in addition our test kits are pretty poor at detecting lower levels. When you do measure it, it is because the capacity of your biological filter has been exceeded.
The "biological filter" we cultivate...whether grown on LR, bioballs, biowheels etc, are bacteria that break down ammonia and nitrite. Biowheels, like bioballs, do this VERY efficiently in fact. Actually, TOO efficiently. THAT is their downfall in some circles.
The argument against them is generally more to do with a hypothesis that nitrates formed "remotely" from the surface of a sand bed or LR will not be broken down preferentially by anearobic bacteria deep in LR, a DSB, ect. The hypothesis is that nitrate produced in the upper layers is used preferentially. Because the biowheels or bioballs are in fact SO efficient, they break down ammonia/nitrite very rapidly so the argument is that the nitrate then builds up.
But people overlook the fact that nitrate problems generally occur in tanks that are overstocked, overfed, and not properly maintained. It is often much easier to blame such problems on a piece of equipment, rather than our own habits. The solution to nitrate issues is often a combination of changes.
However, while SOME tanks may have "nitrate problems" others run just fine with bioballs and biowheels and cannister filters. IMO, these do not inherently cause nitrate problems....PEOPLE cause nitrate problems.
There are MANY ways to run a tank and people can agree to disagree so long as it is productive (please let's all keep it productive!

). But the biowheel for many people, especially new hobbyists, can be very good. They are much better off with "nitrate" issues than the fatal ammonia issue at this critical learning point.
At some point they may remove it, but offering this advice for ALL tanks can be very risky. People simply need to research and decide based on their own circumstances and goals. Nitrates in a FO tank is not necessarily an issue, in a reef it may be.