Blue Hippo Tang with ick

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by squirreloso
read a bit more
its not just on fish, inverts carry it as well
do you QT corals? and other inverts?
if you do, then yes you can have an ich free system in time. if you dont well then your system has ich my friend, just because fish arent effected by it doesnt mean its not present
take a sample of your water to a lab, you will then find out for sure
Yes. Read what I've posted again and again. QT ALL arrivals.
While inverts,rock, sand, etc. do not host ich, the cysts can come in to your tank on them.
QTing is not just to avoid ich. Parasitic flatworms and snails can wipe out an entire reef tank once introduced. Only by QTing corals and inverts can you insure a healthy tank.

 

[squirreloso]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Yes. Read what I've posted again and again. QT ALL arrivals.
While inverts,rock, sand, etc. do not host ich, the cysts can come in to your tank on them.
QTing is not just to avoid ich. Parasitic flatworms and snails can wipe out an entire reef tank once introduced. Only by QTing corals and inverts can you insure a healthy tank.
wiping out an entire reef is a bit exagerated
ive had my fair share of zoa eating snails, flatworms etc
none of my reefs have been wiped out. zoa colonies altered a bit yes, but they reproduce so fast it never made much of an impact.
i just pulled out a large pryamid snail this morning off one of my zoa colonies. i fed it to my valentini puffer in another tank
lets just say im not for causing mass hesteria in the reef community. alot of posters will freak people out saying "omg! you have to do this or your tank will die!" its just rediculous
ich is minor, its nothing to get bent out of shape over

 

[mx#28]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Yes. Read what I've posted again and again. QT ALL arrivals.
While inverts,rock, sand, etc. do not host ich, the cysts can come in to your tank on them.
And ich has a very specific life cycle that renders it incapable of living without a host for a certain amount of time. Just like leaving a display tank fallow for a few months, you can quarantine inverts in a ‘no fish’ system long enough to assure no ich will go into the display tank through them.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by squirreloso
wiping out an entire reef is a bit exagerated
ive had my fair share of zoa eating snails, flatworms etc
none of my reefs have been wiped out. zoa colonies altered a bit yes, but they reproduce so fast it never made much of an impact.
i just pulled out a large pryamid snail this morning off one of my zoa colonies. i fed it to my valentini puffer in another tank
lets just say im not for causing mass hesteria in the reef community. alot of posters will freak people out saying "omg! you have to do this or your tank will die!" its just rediculous
ich is minor, its nothing to get bent out of shape over
How did you rid your tank of the Flatworms? Are they still reproducing and eating your corals? Do a search on these and other forums to see the disasters that have befallen hobbyists with infestations of them.
squirreloso, look-it's clear you are against QT tanks. That's fine. As Mods we are for them. When people ask for help we try to give them the "best" solutions; not the cheapest, easiest, or experimental methods.

 

[sepulatian]

Cooqie, here is a post that I just made to someone else in Disease and Treatment.
Many people on here, including myself, have kept completely ich free environments. I personally prefer hypo to medication. There are three proven methods for killing ich, they are copper, hyposalility, and lack of host. Neither of the two treatments can be done with inverts in the tank. There is a very good reason for that. Ich is an invert. You cannot hope to kill off the 'king' of inverts wihout killing other sensitive inverts. I have used "reef safe" meds before. They do not kill ich, they help to keep it off of the fish. Fish can live with ich if their immune system is high. The problem is that the parasite is continuing to thrive in the tank and will attack the weakest fish in the tank. All it takes if for several parasites to feed at once to have an explosion in the population of ich in the system. We are not closed minded but certain treatment options have withstood the test of time. These treatments work
Trust us. Any experience under a year is not a success story. Come post in D&T, we will walk you through this. For those that think that ich is nothing to be worried about, come over to D&T and see how many fish succumb to ich. Beth also has in her Common Treatments FAQ a compilation of stories both for and apposed to 'reefsafe' meds. You can see for yourself what has worked and what has not.

 

[squirreloso]

ive been doing this since 1980
when fish die due to ich its usually due to bad water quality and a stressed fish
healthy strong fish in excellent water quality will not die from ich
it is as simple as that
if his other tank inhabitants are fine why stress them by taking them out of their "home"???
thats like putting you in a homeless shelter because a family member has the flu. wouldnt that stress you out
???
i dont care what people do with their tanks. this is my advice, no one should play god and point fingers saying "bad advice" blah blah
its not bad advice, im being realistic
take it or leave it, if its not taken then fine. but theres no wrong or right here
i can see if someone said hey man dip your fish in soap, well then yeah thats bad advice lol
no one even cares that the fish isnt even eating, thats a shock to me, but then again these forums are only for people who pull things out of pages

 

[rudedog40]

squirreloso you're wasting your breath. I'm having the same argument with sep, journeyman, and others on another thread about ich. They essential think anything except hypo or copper treatment for ich is a waste of time. But therein lies the problem. Sep says "Come over to the D&T forum and read about all the ich cases". OK, where is all this ich coming from? I just got reading another ich post from someone he adamately told her to do hypo, and she did it for six weeks. She still has ich, and has already lost one of her tangs. Now after stressing out all her fish for six weeks, he wants her to do copper to try and rid the rest of her fish of ich. Sep is telling her the ich came back in her QT tank simply because she let her water get up to 1.010 for two days. You're telling me ich can survive and spread like it did to her fish just because of a .001 difference in salinity? I have a good refractometer, and I don't even know if I could get my water to stay that accurate for 3 weeks. I'll ask anyone in this thread -- how do you confirm you do or don't have ich in your tank? Is there some test you can perform to find out? Can you see ich in a microscope? The claim is ich will be out of your tank if you run it fishless for a minimum of 6 weeks. How do you confirm this?

 

[squirreloso]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
squirreloso you're wasting your breath. I'm having the same argument with sep, journeyman, and others on another thread about ich. They essential think anything except hypo or copper treatment for ich is a waste of time. But therein lies the problem. Sep says "Come over to the D&T forum and read about all the ich cases". OK, where is all this ich coming from? I just got reading another ich post from someone he adamately told her to do hypo, and she did it for six weeks. She still has ich, and has already lost one of her tangs. Now after stressing out all her fish for six weeks, he wants her to do copper to try and rid the rest of her fish of ich. Sep is telling her the ich came back in her QT tank simply because she let her water get up to 1.010 for two days. You're telling me ich can survive and spread like it did to her fish just because of a .001 difference in salinity? I have a good refractometer, and I don't even know if I could get my water to stay that accurate for 3 weeks. I'll ask anyone in this thread -- how do you confirm you do or don't have ich in your tank? Is there some test you can perform to find out? Can you see ich in a microscope? The claim is ich will be out of your tank if you run it fishless for a minimum of 6 weeks. How do you confirm this?

omg! its a shame, because alot of those holier than thou posters are looked up upon as gods and the newbies will listen to them and have more problems than they bargained for, sad part is then they will ask for even more help!

i realize im wasting my breath
and one thing they should mention, because they seem to know it all, is that COPPER and TANGS DONT MIX WELL!!
copper destroys a tangs digestive system...they dont tell those innocent posters in trouble that though do they?
i give up, you know it and i know it, and other poeple with thriving tanks know it. when i post a topic its usually something minor, and more for advice or an opinion, believe me i wouldnt trust these people with my tanks

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by squirreloso
....when fish die due to ich its usually due to bad water quality and a stressed fish
Do you have any evidence or studies to support this claim? I would agree that stressed fish die first, but water quality and ich are two totally seperate and unrelated issues.
Originally Posted by squirreloso
healthy strong fish in excellent water quality will not die from ich
it is as simple as that
See my comment above. While strong fish may be healthy enough to survive the 5-7 day infestation; there is simply no guarantee that a healthy fish is fine with ich.
Originally Posted by squirreloso
if his other tank inhabitants are fine why stress them by taking them out of their "home"???
thats like putting you in a homeless shelter because a family member has the flu. wouldnt that stress you out???
That's a false analogy. The flu is a virus, while Ich is a parasite. Would you continue to use the hairbrush of a family member who has lice?
Originally Posted by squirreloso
i dont care what people do with their tanks. this is my advice, no one should play god and point fingers saying "bad advice"
The bad advice comments were more directed at the posts regarding salinity at the beginning of this thread. They are 100% incorrect.
Originally Posted by squirreloso
no one even cares that the fish isnt even eating, thats a shock to me, but then again these forums are only for people who pull things out of pages

A stressed fish, placed into a competitive environment, infested with ich, not eating, is not surprising.
"Pull things out of pages"? No idea what that means.

 

[squirreloso]

why dont you have the poster mail you his tang where you can cuddle it all night until its ich falls off
then you can tie a bow around him and mail him back ich free for xmas

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by squirreloso
...
and one thing they should mention, because they seem to know it all, is that COPPER and TANGS DONT MIX WELL!!...
Actually that's a well known issue and is often addressed in posting the treatment options. So, for the record, it is mentioned.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by squirreloso
why dont you have the poster mail you his tang where you can cuddle it all night until its ich falls off
then you can tie a bow around him and mail him back ich free for xmas

No thanks! I keep all of my fish healthy and ich free

Squirrel, contrary to what you seem to think, we are certainly open to new ideas and treatments. But doing nothing and living with ich is not something we are open too.

 

[al mc]

Everyone is still arguing a case of what is better when, IMO, many things you are all saying are accurate. The difference is controlling the problem (fish looks good and has no visible Ich) on the one hand versus eliminating the problem (fallow tanks, QT/ hyposalinity or copper) on the other.
Squirrel and rudedog are giving advice on how they control Ich in their tanks
and help their fish if they have symptoms. 1Journeyman and Sepulation are giving advice on how to try to eradicate it and potentially other problems from your tank. They each have a place and each hobbyist will have to make their own determination about what their goal is when dealing with Ich and/or other contagious parasites/organisms.
At this point I doubt that either side will 'win' the arguement.

 

[1journeyman]

Al, to a large extent I agree with you. Excpet that several of the posts basically call into question rather Ich can ever be eradicated or prevented from entering a tank. That's my biggest objection.

 

[al mc]

I hear you journeyman....The tone of the discussion was bothering as much as anything else.
My goal is to 'try' to have my tank(s) and their inhabitants Ich/disease free.
It may be unobtainable...but that is my goal.

 

[squirreloso]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
No thanks! I keep all of my fish healthy and ich free

Squirrel, contrary to what you seem to think, we are certainly open to new ideas and treatments. But doing nothing and living with ich is not something we are open too.
but yes you all live with ich and dont realize it. its in your systems, but your fish are healthy enough to not be bothered by it
i believe ich can die off in time, sure, but that means never adding anything new and yes QTing for a decent amount of time. to be 100% certain id QT for several several months! even then no one can label the fish, live rock, inverts, ich free, because theres always a small chance its present.
and how many QT tanks can one have?? its just not practical
if i would have posted here a month ago when i first got my baby hippo tang and he came down with ich, what would people have told me?
to get him out, QT him, take all my fish out which is mad hard with 200 lbs of live rock in a 30" deep tank, and leave my tank fallow for 6-8 weeks
would it have worked? well yes, would i have losses? yes i believe so.
now what i did was simple. my baby tang was 60% covered in ich, one eye had alot and one fin was totally clamped because of all the ich cysts.
it was very upsetting of course, but i knew not to panic because ive been through this before.
so what did i do? i fed him four times a day, with some of those feedings heavily soaked in garlic guard and selcon. no other fish was effected in this tank mind you.
the ich dropped off as in their normal life cycle, the tang got relief. a few reattached but not many, just a couple of specks. i continued to make him fat, loaded with garlic and selcon, flakes, and frozen foods. he refuses nori, but thats another story. he does eat algae off the rocks and poops it out so he must be getting his greens.
now i look at my baby boy and he is growing every day, hes fiesty and gorgeous, and ich free! with no stress on both me or him..we are both relaxed and im sure he thanks me for that, and all my other inhabitants, instead of yanking them out and being put into a small QT loaded with copper that they dont need
amen

 

[rudedog40]

The moral of the story is, if you get a blue hippo, expect it to get ich, especially in the first couple of weeks you put it in your tank. I think in the last two months, there must have been at least 10 posts from people who purchased a small 1" blue hippo, and it came down with ich. In almost every case, they stated the hippo was the only fish they saw with ich. Journeyman, sep, and others have clearly stated that hippos are "ich magnets", and will exhibit ich when stressed. I don't think any of them will dispute this. The big disagreement is how to treat it. Squirreloso and I think the hypo/copper solution is a little extreme, and while it will indeed resolve the problem with ich, it has it's drawbacks (QTing all fish, stressing fish out with smaller environment and dissimilar water conditions). Journeyman, sep, et. al. think that just treating the ich with meds and spiked food will eliminate the outward symptoms of ich, but it won't completely eradicate the parasite from the normal DT environment. Is either method better than the other? That's for the person who is combating THEIR version of ich to choose.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by squirreloso
but yes you all live with ich and dont realize it....

That statement is absolutely false. We do not "all live with ich".
I feel like I'm Redi arguing with scientists in the 1600's about maggots not spontaneously generating in decaying meat. How in the 9 levels of Hades do we all live with ich??? I'm trying to envision little ich special forces in tiny bubbles of saltwater stealthily making their way from the nearest fish store to my home and sneaking into my tank when I'm not looking

For the 100th time; Ich is a parasite with a known life cycle. Clownfish don't suddenly appear in tanks, nor do groupers, eels, sharks, catfish, lampreys, or coelacanths.
Set up a new tank. Add saltwater. Add sand and live rock. Wait for rock and sand to properly cycle (4-6 weeks. ghost feed as neccessary). Add properly QT'd fish and inverts.
Wait 50 years.
Go back and look at the tank. No ich. Ever. Why? Because it was NEVER introduced.

 

[florida joe]

I just love this time of year so much good will

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
...Journeyman, sep, and others have clearly stated that hippos are "ich magnets", and will exhibit ich when stressed. I don't think any of them will dispute this. The big disagreement is how to treat it. Squirreloso and I think the hypo/copper solution is a little extreme, ....
For the record, I never said "hippos are ich magnets and will exhibit ich when stressed". I don't care how stressed a fish is; without the presence of ich it won't get ich. Nor did I say to treat Tangs with copper. Copper definitely has it's uses, however.