Bush's War

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2565344
You clearly do not understand global commodity trading Rylan.
Near record levels of oil are being produced. Supply/demand and speculators are driving the price of oil. In conjunction with the weak US dollar that a barrel of oil is tied too.
I do understand that, but something else is going on... It has nothing to do with supply and demand. .. A weaker dollar has something to do with it, but everything is off... these companies are not even producing gas at the level they should be... When we export as much oil as we import... because we make more $ on it... that is a problem. You have record profits, but no one is building refineries... There is something bigger going on here.. if it wasn't Congress wouldn't be involved.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2565358
Whats wrong with this? At least he caught himself, unlike another candidates... He didn't give false information about Iran, and he didn't misspeak about sniper fire...
His comments seem to be along the same lines as Petreas about Afghanistan, and that should be our focus. I agree that this should be the best course of action.. Target Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.. and if they set up strongholds in Iraq.. target those specifically.. Much of the fighting in Iraq isn't even by so called "terrorist" but by rivaling militias..(now they are terrorist in the since of the word, but not ones that our dangerous to us domestically). Our focus should have always been Bin Laden 1st. According what was said, what has been done since, and the consequences.. his judgement on this war has been on.
Re-read the quotes. Twice now Obama has either directly or almost directly said Al Qaeda is not in Iraq...
 

crashbandicoot

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2565358
Whats wrong with this? At least he caught himself, unlike another candidates... He didn't give false information about Iran, and he didn't misspeak about sniper fire...
His comments seem to be along the same lines as Petreas about Afghanistan, and that should be our focus. I agree that this should be the best course of action.. Target Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.. and if they set up strongholds in Iraq.. target those specifically.. Much of the fighting in Iraq isn't even by so called "terrorist" but by rivaling militias..(now they are terrorist in the since of the word, but not ones that our dangerous to us domestically). Our focus should have always been Bin Laden 1st. According what was said, what has been done since, and the consequences.. his judgement on this war has been on.

SO by your account if we behead the alqueda by finding and removing bin laden then the rest of the terrorist are nothing to worry about ? Every terrorist and every terroist faction has started out in the grass roots . Or should we just wait for them to become strong enough to do serious damadge before we worry about them ?
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2565370
Re-read the quotes. Twice now Obama has either directly or almost directly said Al Qaeda is not in Iraq...
He said they weren't there before we got there, and he said that their central leadership is not in Iraq... Seems right to me

If he corrected himself before he could even finish the statement... don't accuse him with making that statement, which we all know that he disagrees with.
 

1journeyman

Active Member

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2565366
I do understand that, but something else is going on... It has nothing to do with supply and demand
. .. A weaker dollar has something to do with it, but everything is off... these companies are not even producing gas at the level they should be
... When we export as much oil as we import
... because we make more $ on it... that is a problem. You have record profits, but no one is building refineries... There is something bigger going on here.. if it wasn't Congress wouldn't be involved.
Once again proving my point... Not only do you not understand what a "global commodity" means but now you are implying we need to Socialize the private oil and gas industry.
I don't know where you live, but around here every available spot of land possible is being drilled for oil and natural gas. The DFW airport leased land to drill, school districts are leasing land to drill, etc. to say they aren't drilling everywhere the crazy left will let oil companies drill is obsurd.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2565378
He said they weren't there before we got there, and he said that their central leadership is not in Iraq... Seems right to me:ideclare....
No he didn't. in February he said he would reserve the right to send troops back to Iraq if Al Qaeda ever tried to set up a base of operations there....
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2565372
SO by your account if we behead the alqueda by finding and removing bin laden then the rest of the terrorist are nothing to worry about ? Every terrorist and every terroist faction has started out in the grass roots . Or should we just wait for them to become strong enough to do serious damadge before we worry about them ?
Whats the saying "If cut of the head, the body will follow"
It would be a morale booster for the troops and the American people... it would be a blow to al Qaeda.. I'm not saying we would have nothing to worry about.. but don't you think our priority should be to take out their leadership 1st? As long as the leader is in power.. they will have the ability to reassemble.
 

crashbandicoot

Active Member
Just seams to me that the DEMS dont want to address there is a global problem with terrorism . Clinton failed to act on the alarms that were going off about Bin Laden. Now you got Obama saying that there is no problem with terrorists in Iraq ? Sounds like a case of stick your head in the sand and hope not to get kicked in the backside to me .
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2565385
Whats the saying "If cut of the head, the body will follow"
It would be a morale booster for the troops and the American people... it would be a blow to al Qaeda.. I'm not saying we would have nothing to worry about.. but don't you think our priority should be to take out their leadership 1st? As long as the leader is in power.. they will have the ability to reassemble.
Wait... Weren't you arguing a few pages ago that we were making more terrorists? Now suddenly all we need to do is kill the leader?
The best morale booster our troops could get is if Democratic Presidential hopefuls would quit saying they failed and we need to retreat.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Let's 'Surge' Some More
By MICHAEL YON
April 11, 2008
It is said that generals always fight the last war. But when David Petraeus came to town it was senators – on both sides of the aisle – who battled over the Iraq war of 2004-2006. That war has little in common with the war we are fighting today.
I may well have spent more time embedded with combat units in Iraq than any other journalist alive. I have seen this war – and our part in it – at its brutal worst. And I say the transformation over the last 14 months is little short of miraculous.
The change goes far beyond the statistical decline in casualties or incidents of violence. A young Iraqi translator, wounded in battle and fearing death, asked an American commander to bury his heart in America. Iraqi special forces units took to the streets to track down terrorists who killed American soldiers. The U.S. military is the most respected institution in Iraq, and many Iraqi boys dream of becoming American soldiers. Yes, young Iraqi boys know about "GoArmy.com."
As the outrages of Abu Ghraib faded in memory – and paled in comparison to al Qaeda's brutalities – and our soldiers under the Petraeus strategy got off their big bases and out of their tanks and deeper into the neighborhoods, American values began to win the war.
Iraqis came to respect American soldiers as warriors who would protect them from terror gangs. But Iraqis also discovered that these great warriors are even happier helping rebuild a clinic, school or a neighborhood. They learned that the American soldier is not only the most dangerous enemy in the world, but one of the best friends a neighborhood can have.
Some people charge that we have merely "rented" the Sunni tribesmen, the former insurgents who now fight by our side. This implies that because we pay these people, their loyalty must be for sale to the highest bidder. But as Gen. Petraeus demonstrated in Nineveh province in 2003 to 2004, many of the Iraqis who filled the ranks of the Sunni insurgency from 2003 into 2007 could have been working with us all along, had we treated them intelligently and respectfully. In Nineveh in 2003, under then Maj. Gen. Petraeus's leadership, these men – many of them veterans of the Iraqi army – played a crucial role in restoring civil order. Yet due to excessive de-Baathification and the administration's attempt to marginalize powerful tribal sheiks in Anbar and other provinces – including men even Saddam dared not ignore – we transformed potential partners into dreaded enemies in less than a year.
Then al Qaeda in Iraq, which helped fund and tried to control the Sunni insurgency for its own ends, raped too many women and boys, cut off too many heads, and brought drugs into too many neighborhoods. By outraging the tribes, it gave birth to the Sunni "awakening." We – and Iraq – got a second chance. Powerful tribes in Anbar province cooperate with us now because they came to see al Qaeda for what it is – and to see Americans for what we truly are.
Soldiers everywhere are paid, and good generals know it is dangerous to mess with a soldier's money. The shoeless heroes who froze at Valley Forge were paid, and when their pay did not come they threatened to leave – and some did. Soldiers have families and will not fight for a nation that allows their families to starve. But to say that the tribes who fight with us are "rented" is perhaps as vile a slander as to say that George Washington's men would have left him if the British offered a better deal.
Equally misguided were some senators' attempts to use Gen. Petraeus's statement, that there could be no purely military solution in Iraq, to dismiss our soldiers' achievements as "merely" military. In a successful counterinsurgency it is impossible to separate military and political success. The Sunni "awakening" was not primarily a military event any more than it was "bribery." It was a political event with enormous military benefits.
The huge drop in roadside bombings is also a political success – because the bombings were political events. It is not possible to bury a tank-busting 1,500-pound bomb in a neighborhood street without the neighbors noticing. Since the military cannot watch every road during every hour of the day (that would be a purely military solution), whether the bomb kills soldiers depends on whether the neighbors warn the soldiers or cover for the terrorists. Once they mostly stood silent; today they tend to pick up their cell phones and call the Americans. Even in big "kinetic" military operations like the taking of Baqubah in June 2007, politics was crucial. Casualties were a fraction of what we expected because, block-by-block, the citizens told our guys where to find the bad guys. I was there; I saw it.
 

reefraff

Active Member
The Iraqi central government is unsatisfactory at best. But the grass-roots political progress of the past year has been extraordinary – and is directly measurable in the drop in casualties.
This leads us to the most out-of-date aspect of the Senate debate: the argument about the pace of troop withdrawals. Precisely because we have made so much political progress in the past year, rather than talking about force reduction, Congress should be figuring ways and means to increase troop levels. For all our successes, we still do not have enough troops. This makes the fight longer and more lethal for the troops who are fighting. To give one example, I just returned this week from Nineveh province, where I have spent probably eight months between 2005 to 2008, and it is clear that we remain stretched very thin from the Syrian border and through Mosul. Vast swaths of Nineveh are patrolled mostly by occasional overflights.
We know now that we can pull off a successful counterinsurgency in Iraq. We know that we are working with an increasingly willing citizenry. But counterinsurgency, like community policing, requires lots of boots on the ground. You can't do it from inside a jet or a tank.
Over the past 15 months, we have proved that we can win this war. We stand now at the moment of truth. Victory – and a democracy in the Arab world – is within our grasp. But it could yet slip away if our leaders remain transfixed by the war we almost lost, rather than focusing on the war we are winning today.
Mr. Yon is author of the just-published "Moment of Truth in Iraq" (Richard Vigilante Books). He has been reporting from Iraq and Afghanistan since December 2004.
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2565379
Once again proving my point... Not only do you not understand what a "global commodity" means but now you are implying we need to Socialize the private oil and gas industry.
I don't know where you live, but around here every available spot of land possible is being drilled for oil and natural gas. The DFW airport leased land to drill, school districts are leasing land to drill, etc. to say they aren't drilling everywhere the crazy left will let oil companies drill is obsurd.
No I didn't say that... but don't you live in Texas?... enough said..
But when the country depends and runs off of oil.... its the reason why all our prices have increased(everything from groceries to shipping)... I am saying that the market should have better control... because if it continues to fluctuate as it does, and the oil execs make billions, while the average person struggles to pay for a full tank... there is something that needs to be done.
And since we rely on imported oil, instead of our own... we are basically prisoners to these foreign oil producing nations because we can't afford to upset them, because our economy and standard of living will suffer.
I do understand what speculators do, and how the cost of the product is dependent on projected market variables... I also understand we have a huge surplus, and I don't believe demand has changed that much to justify the cost. We also haven't done enough to invest in alternative vehicles... We are the largest oil drinking nation... They say China is the one who is increasing demand.. maybe... but they ride around in gas economical vehicles and bicycles.. We still probably consume more than twice the amount they do... its probably more than that...for a nation much smaller.
 

crashbandicoot

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2565385
Whats the saying "If cut of the head, the body will follow"
It would be a morale booster for the troops and the American people... it would be a blow to al Qaeda.. I'm not saying we would have nothing to worry about.. but don't you think our priority should be to take out their leadership 1st? As long as the leader is in power.. they will have the ability to reassemble.

Do you really not understand how terrorist groups like al queda work ? You take out bin laden and the next guy in line will take his place . You take him out and the next steps in . Besides that do you really think that binladen is the only mastermind behind al queda ? Do you honeslty think that alqueda is the only terrorist group that we need to worry about ? As Journey has said do think that Iran is not as big of a threat to the stability of Iraq as a newly reformed democratic nation ?
 

rudedog40

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2565379
Once again proving my point... Not only do you not understand what a "global commodity" means but now you are implying we need to Socialize the private oil and gas industry.
I don't know where you live, but around here every available spot of land possible is being drilled for oil and natural gas. The DFW airport leased land to drill, school districts are leasing land to drill, etc. to say they aren't drilling everywhere the crazy left will let oil companies drill is obsurd.
Youy may see oil pumps, but that doesn't mean the government is allowing them to pump their limits. My cousin has several thousand acres in Northeast Texas with pumps on them. He can easily pump 400 barrels a day out of them, but Uncle Sam (or whoever) is limiting him to 100. Why? If we have the oil to produce, why are they keeping people like him from pumping as much and as fast as he can?
 

rudedog40

Member
Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2565411
Do you really not understand how terrorist groups like al queda work ? You take out bin laden and the next guy in line will take his place . You take him out and the next steps in . Besides that do you really think that binladen is the only mastermind behind al queda ? Do you honeslty think that alqueda is the only terrorist group that we need to worry about ? As Journey has said do think that Iran is not as big of a threat to the stability of Iraq as a newly reformed democratic nation ?
So what you want is an infinite war. That's what it'll take to kill every single terrorist you think will harm the US one day. Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups are teaching 10 and 11 year old boys how to fire AK-47's. This 'war' in the Middle East has been going on for centuries, and no matter what democracy, resurgance, or how many 'boots on the ground' you put or do over there, it's virtually impossible to erradicate terrorism as we know it.
You want to stop it? Sterilize every single female that lives in the Middle East. Kill of the source of the 'terrorist machine' and you kill off terrorism. That's the only way you will completely erradicate terrorism in this world...
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2565379
Once again proving my point... Not only do you not understand what a "global commodity" means but now you are implying we need to Socialize the private oil and gas industry.
I don't know where you live, but around here every available spot of land possible is being drilled for oil and natural gas. The DFW airport leased land to drill, school districts are leasing land to drill, etc. to say they aren't drilling everywhere the crazy left will let oil companies drill is obsurd.
That is actually almost entirely natural gas. Those wells you see. Good old Barnett Shale.
 

crashbandicoot

Active Member
Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2565475
So what you want is an infinite war. That's what it'll take to kill every single terrorist you think will harm the US one day. Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups are teaching 10 and 11 year old boys how to fire AK-47's. This 'war' in the Middle East has been going on for centuries, and no matter what democracy, resurgance, or how many 'boots on the ground' you put or do over there, it's virtually impossible to erradicate terrorism as we know it.
You want to stop it? Sterilize every single female that lives in the Middle East. Kill of the source of the 'terrorist machine' and you kill off terrorism. That's the only way you will completely erradicate terrorism in this world...

Did this post actually have a point ? Are you avocating not acting against terrorisim . So we should just go back to our pre 9-11-01 blind to the real world veiws . That nobody is out to get us ?
I hear about how we are just not ready to change all the time . The world has changed and you don't see it do you . You think we can live and let live and the bad guys will just lay down their (ak-47) and adopt peacfull Ideals ?
That terrorist will come baring the olive branch and no longer bombs ?
The terrorists will continue to wage war on anybody they can . Thats exactly why we can not give them a second chance to catch us asleep . Last time was hijacked aircraft next time it will be a dirty bomb you can bet your bank account on that .
 

crashbandicoot

Active Member
Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2565457
Youy may see oil pumps, but that doesn't mean the government is allowing them to pump their limits. My cousin has several thousand acres in Northeast Texas with pumps on them. He can easily pump 400 barrels a day out of them, but Uncle Sam (or whoever) is limiting him to 100. Why? If we have the oil to produce, why are they keeping people like him from pumping as much and as fast as he can?

What would happen if you sat down with a package of cookies and ate them as fast as you could ? you would run out of cookies and be sad when you had no more to eat . Then you would be right back to eatting forigen cookies .
 

rudedog40

Member
Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2565509
What would happen if you sat down with a package of cookies and ate them as fast as you could ? you would run out of cookies and be sad when you had no more to eat . Then you would be right back to eatting forigen cookies .

stupid analogy. The fact of the matter is, we have the oil, the oil companies and US government don't want to use it. There's enough oil under US soil to last WAY past either you, your grandkids, or their grandkids. It's just when do we use it to get away from foreign oil dependency.
 
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