Can Nitrate kill?

row

Member
A friend of mine has a 135 gal. bow front. Last week all his fish died. I went over to check the water and the ammonia was 0, the nitrite was 0, but the nitrate was 80 PPM. Can that high of nitrate be toxic to fish.
He also pays someone to maintain the tank for him. It was a FO tank and the person who maintains it took the rock out and bleached it, too clean algae off. I didn't think that sounded like a great idea. The fish died within 2 days of putting the rock back into the system.
Any thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.
 

ryanbush

New Member
the bleaching of the rock is most likley what killed all the fish, the bacteria that lives on those rocks is what keeps these fish alive, when he bleached the rocks he just started the cycle all over again, most likely there is also bleach contamination on the rocks as well, it would be hard to believe he got all the bleach off the rocks, somebody else might have a diffrent opinion but most likely the rock will need to be replaced
 
The bleach, bad idea. The rock will either need to be replaced, or washed, cured, and left to rest to make sure all bleach is off. as with everything else that was in the tank.
 

row

Member
Thanks, I told him to drain the tank, get rid of the rock, and just start all over again. He also has CC, I told him he should think about getting LS and LR. I have never heard of cleaning rock with bleach. The maintenance guy didn't even remove the dead fish. When I went over there tonite I took 3 fish out and their was 1 skeleton I couldn't get to.
 

aztec reef

Active Member
Actually the bleach is very effective, If done properly,(it's usually done in extreme cases of algea) but being a maintenance guy probably couldn't care less and didn't really know what he was doing ..Although when the rock is bleached is pretty much turned to base. is no longer "live".
Nitrates will not kill, Specially fish . They would have to be like 200 or higher.
Most likely if the rock still contains bleach, he can take all the liverock put in a salt bucket with a powerhead for a week then get a chlorine test kit and check if it doesn't show it i would just reuse it, if not then send it to me i'll take it..I'll pay shipping too..
The wierd thing is that you say there was 0 ammonia. :notsure:
Cuz if the live rock was bleached it would be base rock pretty much, so it would have to be Recuring right about now..
Also i would get rid of the CC a.s.a.p. and restart the tank Again from Cycle.(if there's no animals in there)
 

row

Member
Everything in the tank died so there is no livestock in the tank. It really looks awful, green hair algae all over everything, besides on the rocks that were bleached.
In a FO tank how much circulation should you have? The tank is kind of awkward. It is very tall and narrow. Their was no powerheads or any other secondary type of filtration in the tank.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
1.Nitrates of 88ppm would not kill the fish overnight.
2. Bleaching the rock could have caused a cycle, but then again since all of the fish are now dead there is not much of a source of ammonia, and there is still bacteria in the CC.
3. If your friend is paying someone to take care of the tank and it's Nitrates are at 80 and there is algae everywhere it definitely sounds like he's not getting his money's worth out of the "service".
4. It's been too long since I took chemistry (I'll try to get Bang to look at this as I suspect he can weigh in) but I believe the active ingredient in bleach is Chlorine. Frankly, I would bet that's what wiped out the fish. Porous live rock would need to be soaked thoroughly to remove the bleach. I suspect this was not done.
 

larryndana

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
1.Nitrates of 88ppm would not kill the fish overnight.
2. Bleaching the rock could have caused a cycle, but then again since all of the fish are now dead there is not much of a source of ammonia, and there is still bacteria in the CC.
3. If your friend is paying someone to take care of the tank and it's Nitrates are at 80 and there is algae everywhere it definitely sounds like he's not getting his money's worth out of the "service".
4. It's been too long since I took chemistry (I'll try to get Bang to look at this as I suspect he can weigh in) but I believe the active ingredient in bleach is Chlorine. Frankly, I would bet that's what wiped out the fish. Porous live rock would need to be soaked thoroughly to remove the bleach. I suspect this was not done.
i agree totally with all points here.
and i'd also get rid of that rock, no telling how much bleach was used and if the rock would ever be ok to use again, JMO.
 
J

jesses89

Guest
keeping your rocks algae free is pretty simple really...
good flow
lots of snails/hermits
6-8 hours of light?
every since i started this.... i havent had an algae problem. been months...
 

miaheatlvr

Active Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
Actually the bleach is very effective, If done properly,(it's usually done in extreme cases of algea) but being a maintenance guy probably couldn't care less and didn't really know what he was doing ..Although when the rock is bleached is pretty much turned to base. is no longer "live".
Nitrates will not kill, Specially fish . They would have to be like 200 or higher.
What? I completely disagree! High nitrates is like swimming in sewer water,, yes you can survive but its not healty and will kill you in time.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
Nitrates will not kill, Specially fish .
yes nitrates are toxic to fish they are just less toxic than ammonia or trites. nitrates can and will kill if high levels are present for too long.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
1.Nitrates of 88ppm would not kill the fish overnight.
2. Bleaching the rock could have caused a cycle, but then again since all of the fish are now dead there is not much of a source of ammonia, and there is still bacteria in the CC.
3. If your friend is paying someone to take care of the tank and it's Nitrates are at 80 and there is algae everywhere it definitely sounds like he's not getting his money's worth out of the "service".
4. It's been too long since I took chemistry (I'll try to get Bang to look at this as I suspect he can weigh in) but I believe the active ingredient in bleach is Chlorine. Frankly, I would bet that's what wiped out the fish. Porous live rock would need to be soaked thoroughly to remove the bleach. I suspect this was not done.
This is very well put. I too doubt that 88ppm nitrates wiped out the fish over night unless they were very sensitive fish. nitrates are toxic, but over night? highly unlikley.
 

bang guy

Moderator
I agree with everything posted by Aztec and Journeyman.
Bleach is safe to use under certain circumstances, live rock isn't one of them. The bleach needs to be throughly rinced out and allowed to dry completely before reuse. This isn't something you can do with live rock.
First, it takes many hours to dissolve all of the organic material in the rock. If dead organic material is left in the rock then it will rot and leach Phosphates and Nitrates for a long long time.
Second, it could take a week to completely dry porous rock and if it's not completely dry then there's a very good chance that chlorine is present.
My guess is that the source of the hair algae was improper curing of the rock in the first place. It was probably exposed to high ammonia levels and became a phosphate source.
I would expect the service you hired to replace the lost livestock and the live rock that was destroyed.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
I agree with everything posted by Aztec and Journeyman.
Bleach is safe to use under certain circumstances, live rock isn't one of them. The bleach needs to be throughly rinced out and allowed to dry completely before reuse. This isn't something you can do with live rock.
First, it takes many hours to dissolve all of the organic material in the rock. If dead organic material is left in the rock then it will rot and leach Phosphates and Nitrates for a long long time.
Second, it could take a week to completely dry porous rock and if it's not completely dry then there's a very good chance that chlorine is present.
My guess is that the source of the hair algae was improper curing of the rock in the first place. It was probably exposed to high ammonia levels and became a phosphate source.
I would expect the service you hired to replace the lost livestock and the live rock that was destroyed.
so your saying nitrates wont kill?
 

reefkprz

Active Member
I seriously have to disagree with the levels required to cause adverse affects in fish.
A group of Spanish chemists have published a review of the toxicity of nitrate upon aquatic organisms which includes new data on the effect of nitrate upon freshwater invertebrates.
Camargo, Alonso and Salamanca of Madrid's Departamento Interuniversitario de Ecologia at the Universidad de Alcala, published their findings in the latest issue of the journal Chemosphere.
The review, which looked at marine and freshwater invertebrates, fishes and amphibians, suggests that the main toxic effect of nitrate is due to its ability to convert oxygen-carrying pigments to forms that are incapable of carrying oxygen.
A similar process occurs with nitrite, in which the chemical oxidises haemoglobin to methaemoglobin which has no oxygen-carrying capacity.
The authors claim that nitrate is more toxic at higher levels and when animals are exposed to raised levels for long periods of time. Interestingly, nitrate appears to become less toxic the larger an animal becomes and is also less of a problem to marine organisms and to those adapted for nitrate-rich environments.
The paper also explains that even fairly low levels can have adverse effects if organisms are exposed to them for long periods.
Just 10ppm of nitrate-nitrogen (that's a mere 3.03 ppm of nitrate) has been shown to have adverse effects on salmonids such as Oncorhynchus mykiss, Oncorhynchus tshawytscha and Salmo clarki, as well as upon a number of freshwater invertebrates and frogs.
Marine organisms, however, are much more tolerant and levels of 20ppm nitrate-nitrogen (that's still just 6ppm nitrate) were required to cause adverse effects.
For more details see the paper: Camargo JA, Alonso A, Salamanca A. (2005) - Nitrate toxicity to aquatic animals: a review with new data for freshwater invertebrates. Chemosphere. 2005 Mar; 58(9): 1255-67.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
I agree that it was most likley the chlorine that caused the deaths in this case, but saying nitrates wont kill is going against ALL scientific research.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Sodium chloride inhibits the oxidation effect of Nitrite and Nitrate. Enough Nitrate or Nitrite will kill a marine fish but it is very high for most of the reef fish we keep. 100ppm Nitrate is going to make a fish uncomfortable, in my opinion it's not going to kill any of the typical fish that hobbiests keep unless it is already weak from some other ailment.
Comparing Freshwater to saltwater is rarely accurate. For example, 0.5ppm Nitrite in a soft water fresh tank is going to quickly kill all the fish. 20ppm Nitrite in a marine tank isn't going to kill a fish.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Very true. but the original state ment made by aztec was, "nitrates wont kill especially fish it would have to be over 200PPM". now true nitrates are less toxic, marine fish can acclimate to high nitrate environments far better than FW, but if the increase was sudden like going from 5ppm to 88ppm thats a big swing. thats not acclimating to a high nitrate environment thats sudden nitrate poisoning. I truly believe a sudden jump in nitrates can kill a fish, as well as the fact nitrates under 200ppm CAN kill fish. especially small or stressed fish. show me proof that only nitrates over 200ppm can be leathal I will definatly sing that song. hard facts say other wise. there is no set limit on toxicity, different levels affect different fish species and different sized fish differently. I originally stated that I doubted it was nitrates in this case but the blaket statement that it would have to be over 200PPm just isnt true.
the article also shows marine fish at the bottom. maybe I should have picked a more marine based article but it does show low levels can adversly affect marine fish.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
perhaps this article is more to your flavor bang and it does reiterate your statement that 100ppm isnt likley to kill a fish. (wich of course I did agree with in every statement Except the one instance where I cited possibilities of sudden nitrate spiking being detrimental)
Most marine ornamental species have a very low
tolerance for ammonia or nitrite when compared to
freshwater species. Nitrate toxicity is also a concern at
levels which would have little to no impact on
freshwater species. For example, in the anemonefish
Amphiprion ocellaris, high nitrate levels (i.e., 100 mg/
l) reduced growth of juveniles and delayed metamorphosis
of larvae with subsequent declines in growth
and survival (Frankes and Hoff, 1982) Invertebrates
such as corals may be especially affected. For
example, rates of skeleton building declined by up
to 50% in corals exposed to 20 mM of nitrate
(Marubini and Davies, 1996). Nitrogen is the limiting
nutrient in most marine systems, and as such presents a
challenge for design criteria. Even moderate levels of
nitrogenous wastes can result in significant, nuisance
algae blooms in the system. Biological filtration must
be able to maintain total ammonia nitrogen (TAN) and
nitrite, at levels near zero (<0.004 mg/l) for influent
water. Nitrate should be maintained below 100 mg/l,
and in nature occurs at levels less than 1 mg/l. High
nitrates typically result in algal blooms and over time
can result in a lowering of pH.
from
Design criteria for recirculating, marine ornamental
production systems
Craig A. Watson *, Jeffrey E. Hill
 
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