can something without a brain feel pain?
- Thread starter taznut
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1journeyman
Active Member
As Ophiura says, a better definition is in order.
Corals react to each other and their environment.
Corals react to each other and their environment.
mudplayerx
Active Member
I would guess that anything with nerves can feel pain. Why would something recoil from a harmful stimulus if it wasn't unpleasant?
That being said, I don't think corals contemplate pain in any way or make judgements based on pain.
That being said, I don't think corals contemplate pain in any way or make judgements based on pain.
T
tiberius
Guest
They don't feel pain same as when I prune my shrubs or cut my grass.
ophiura
Active Member
Originally Posted by Tiberius
They don't feel pain same as when I prune my shrubs or cut my grass.
Corals do have a basic nervous system...a nerve net. They can detect stimulus, and of course wage major wars against one another using both chemical and physical means. They can detect negative stimulus. The question is when we attach the term "pain" to it which is somewhat more emotional...and I have gone down this road before with bad results.
They can certainly detect negative stimulus, without a doubt.
They don't feel pain same as when I prune my shrubs or cut my grass.
Corals do have a basic nervous system...a nerve net. They can detect stimulus, and of course wage major wars against one another using both chemical and physical means. They can detect negative stimulus. The question is when we attach the term "pain" to it which is somewhat more emotional...and I have gone down this road before with bad results.
They can certainly detect negative stimulus, without a doubt.
30-xtra high
Active Member
i think they can't feel pain, i think this because their reaction is the same if anything touches it, does that mean it hurts?, if something touching it hurts it... how can you take a razor and slize a piece of it and have it live?... doesn't make sense,
and nerves lead to a brain, giving the body signals for the reaction.
and nerves lead to a brain, giving the body signals for the reaction.
ophiura
Active Member
Things like anemones, corals, and even some "higher invertebrates" do not have "brains." For a very long while echinoderms and cnidarians were considered closely related because of this and their radial symmetry. However, this is misleading. There is no doubt cnidarians react to stimulus but do not have a brain. Echinoderms such as seastars and brittlestars have a rather mysterious nervous system in that they display exceedingly complex behaviors (as well as sensory abilities), but they do not have a centralized brain as we know it. How they process this information is a mystery.
So in addition to defining pain, you must also define what you mean by a brain. If you mean cephalization - a "brain" characteristic of bilaterally symmetric animals like worms, snails, crustaceans (and humans) that is one thing. But it is not truly indicative of behavior, IMO.
So in addition to defining pain, you must also define what you mean by a brain. If you mean cephalization - a "brain" characteristic of bilaterally symmetric animals like worms, snails, crustaceans (and humans) that is one thing. But it is not truly indicative of behavior, IMO.
taznut
Active Member
I dont believe they feel pain... as 30-xtra high said, corals for the most part act the same way no matter what is done to them... if you continue rubbing part of the coral it shrinks up and retracts all polyps the same way it does if you cut it... i dont believe something can feel pain without a brain, inorder to feel pain something needs to process the information... as for feeling something unpleasant, any sort of stimulus seems to cause it to act the same way so i dont understand how any stimulus can be separated into pleasant and not...
good conversation so far...
good conversation so far...
autofreak44
Active Member
i would say (from health class) that things like coral feeling pain could not be true. i think this is more of an instinctive thing than that it actualy feels pain. in order to convey pain, it would need a much more complex nervous system. besides think of all the kinds of pain there are.. burning, stinging, aching,etc. i just think that they are reacting out of instinct and survival, rather than screaming on the inside.. but just my opinion correct me if im wrong
jerthunter
Active Member
Well the last time I asked a coral about whether it felt pain it refused to answer my question so I assume that the question must have been too painful for it.. So yes, I believe they feel pain.
I would say that since they can respond different, negatively and positively to different stimuli they must sense pain in a sense.
I would say that since they can respond different, negatively and positively to different stimuli they must sense pain in a sense.
1journeyman
Active Member
Ok.. let's think about this.. If corals don't feel pain how did they ever evolve to react to negative stimulis?
What is pain? Why does a baby cry when they get a shot?
What is pain? Why does a baby cry when they get a shot?
cowfishrule
Active Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
Things like anemones, corals, and even some "higher invertebrates" do not have "brains." For a very long while echinoderms and cnidarians were considered closely related because of this and their radial symmetry. However, this is misleading. There is no doubt cnidarians react to stimulus but do not have a brain. Echinoderms such as seastars and brittlestars have a rather mysterious nervous system in that they display exceedingly complex behaviors (as well as sensory abilities), but they do not have a centralized brain as we know it. How they process this information is a mystery.
So in addition to defining pain, you must also define what you mean by a brain. If you mean cephalization - a "brain" characteristic of bilaterally symmetric animals like worms, snails, crustaceans (and humans) that is one thing. But it is not truly indicative of behavior, IMO.
yeah- what she said.
Things like anemones, corals, and even some "higher invertebrates" do not have "brains." For a very long while echinoderms and cnidarians were considered closely related because of this and their radial symmetry. However, this is misleading. There is no doubt cnidarians react to stimulus but do not have a brain. Echinoderms such as seastars and brittlestars have a rather mysterious nervous system in that they display exceedingly complex behaviors (as well as sensory abilities), but they do not have a centralized brain as we know it. How they process this information is a mystery.
So in addition to defining pain, you must also define what you mean by a brain. If you mean cephalization - a "brain" characteristic of bilaterally symmetric animals like worms, snails, crustaceans (and humans) that is one thing. But it is not truly indicative of behavior, IMO.
yeah- what she said.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Symon
Not possible for it to feel pain, the nervous system is not vast enough to process! I do belive it can react, but to feel pain, you would have to prove it had an advanced enough nervous system to process such signals!
How can an anemone react to ice and yet not feel pain?
Not possible for it to feel pain, the nervous system is not vast enough to process! I do belive it can react, but to feel pain, you would have to prove it had an advanced enough nervous system to process such signals!
How can an anemone react to ice and yet not feel pain?
bang guy
Moderator
A Giant Clam will give the exact same reaction to a touch as it will to a shadow passing over it.
Does the shadow cause pain or is it just a stimulus that causes a reaction.
Does a bite out of the mantle cause it pain or does it just react to a stimulus?
IMO it has no brain so it can feel no pain. Its nervous system can react to a stimulus though for self preservation.
Does the shadow cause pain or is it just a stimulus that causes a reaction.
Does a bite out of the mantle cause it pain or does it just react to a stimulus?
IMO it has no brain so it can feel no pain. Its nervous system can react to a stimulus though for self preservation.
taznut
Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
A Giant Clam will give the exact same reaction to a touch as it will to a shadow passing over it.
Does the shadow cause pain or is it just a stimulus that causes a reaction.
Does a bite out of the mantle cause it pain or does it just react to a stimulus?
IMO it has no brain so it can feel no pain. Its nervous system can react to a stimulus though for self preservation.
yea one of the big dogs on my side
... lol... like bang guy says, acting to same to a shadow and something that we would think of as painful shows they do not feel pain, IMO... i dont see an argument for a shadow causing pain, it would be like someone taking food away from us for a minute or so...
again, good conversation... vote is getting closer to 50/50 though :notsure: ...
A Giant Clam will give the exact same reaction to a touch as it will to a shadow passing over it.
Does the shadow cause pain or is it just a stimulus that causes a reaction.
Does a bite out of the mantle cause it pain or does it just react to a stimulus?
IMO it has no brain so it can feel no pain. Its nervous system can react to a stimulus though for self preservation.
yea one of the big dogs on my side
again, good conversation... vote is getting closer to 50/50 though :notsure: ...
jerthunter
Active Member
I believe this arguement would be impossible or atleast near impossible for anyone to win at. It really comes down to what your definition of pain is. It seems pretty much everybody who has gave a reason has a different idea of what pain is. If you go with an identity theory perspective that pain is a specific chemical reaction that occurs in a specific place in the brain that by that definiton something without a brain couldn't feel pain. If you go with a definition based on functional behaviorism, you could say pain is a type of behavioral response to a type of stimuli. By this definition it would seems obvious that pain could be experienced even without a brain. Until there is agreement on what defines pain there can be valid arguements that oppose each other but are still true based on the definition of pain used.