Catholics vs. Abortion vs. Obama's mandate...

D

dragonzim

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456935
There is no doubt in my mind that Obama will be back-peddling on this one. No way is the Catholic Church going to concede on this. I'm sure he will exempt religious orgs from this requirement. The Church will drop all of its health plans before it will include birth control in anything it is paying for. Let US taxpapers (Obamacare) pay for the health plans, because the Church won't be doing it.
Why should health plans include birth control anyway for goodness sake? Health care is supposed to cover illnesses, and disease preventing interventions. Most birth control methods actually are bad for your health. If people want to have sex, why is it the responsibility of an insurance agency (or employer) to make sure that you don't get pregnant? Insurances are already covering birthing and delivery, which, again, is not exactly a disease.
Cheaper for them to cover birth control than it is to cover a kid? I never understood why they cover ED meds for men either... Why should the plan have to pay for men to get it up?
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456870
Uh, no. What part of "No one is forcing a Catholic employee to puchase contraceptives. The only thing this mandate does is provide them the opportunity to do so if they so desire." doesn't he understand?
Ohhh but they are... And then give them away for free... Some Catholic employee, probably the buyer for the hospital is going to have to go buy em...
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456935
There is no doubt in my mind that Obama will be back-peddling on this one. No way is the Catholic Church going to concede on this. I'm sure he will exempt religious orgs from this requirement. The Church will drop all of its health plans before it will include birth control in anything it is paying for. Let US taxpapers (Obamacare) pay for the health plans, because the Church won't be doing it.
Why should health plans include birth control anyway for goodness sake? Health care is supposed to cover illnesses, and disease preventing interventions. Most birth control methods actually are bad for your health. If people want to have sex, why is it the responsibility of an insurance agency (or employer) to make sure that you don't get pregnant? Insurances are already covering birthing and delivery, which, again, is not exactly a disease.
Do you use birth control? My mother used the rythm method (devout Catholic) and had 5 kids because of it (one 'accident', and also two miscarriages). The Catholic church and other religious zealots chastise women for having abortions, but you don't want them using birth control to avoid having unwanted pregnancies? Birth control pills aren't specifically prescribed to prevent women from getting pregnant. Some doctors prescribe them as hormone control methods. I guess if you don't use them, you're not aware of the cost associated with buying those pills. They are part of the prescription plan in this healthcare mandate. Does this plan provide ****** for men? Insurance coverage isn't only for "diseases", it also covers you for prevention of contracting diseases - annual physicals, colonoscopy's to detect colon cancer, mammograms to detect breast cancer, prostate exams to detect prostate cancer, blood work to detect other forms of cancer and potential heart disease.... I want the ability to detect a fatal disease before I get it. I shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars out of my own pocket to do it.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456924
Let me attempt to lead you out of your 0bamite fog. The Catholic church owns things like adoption agencies and hospitals. Under 0bama care they are mandated to offer these coverages to employees as part of their health insurance. It doesn't matter if their employee, many of who are not Catholic uses the services or not. Just forcing them to offer the services violates their religious beliefs. If 0bama would get his dam nose out of the air he would have seen this mess coming a mile away.
.
Those adoption agencies and hospitals are funded with taxpayer money. Not all employees that work for these institutions are Catholic. My SIL works for a Catholic hospital in Houston, and she's Baptist. AGAIN, it's just an option on the plan. So would you agree that if a Jehovah Witness ran some company, they should be able to opt out of any insurance plan that includes allowing facilities to provide blood transfusions?
This myopic view that "forcing them to offer something that's against their religion" is ridiculous. It's also hypocritical since this mandate has been in place already for over 10 yeras:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/controversial-obama-birth-control-rule-already-law
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate/20#post_3456946
Those adoption agencies and hospitals are funded with taxpayer money. Not all employees that work for these institutions are Catholic. My SIL works for a Catholic hospital in Houston, and she's Baptist. AGAIN, it's just an option on the plan. So would you agree that if a Jehovah Witness ran some company, they should be able to opt out of any insurance plan that includes allowing facilities to provide blood transfusions?
This myopic view that "forcing them to offer something that's against their religion" is ridiculous. It's also hypocritical since this mandate has been in place already for over 10 yeras:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/controversial-obama-birth-control-rule-already-law
You are confused. Reading Mother Jones will do that to you. This is part of 0bama care. Has NOTHING to do with federal funding.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2012/0130/Can-Obama-s-health-care-law-force-Catholics-to-support-birth-control
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
bioicarm, I'm not saying that women or men should not use birth control. It is up to each to decide that. What I am saying is that the government does not have the right to force a religious organization, that opposes birth control, to pay for birth control coverage. No one is forcing anyone to be a Catholic and abide by that religion's "rules". Likewise, no one is forcing anyone to work for the Catholic Church or enroll in their health care plans. If someone don't like it, then don't enroll (get your insurance on your own), or don't work for the Church. Government should not be involved. Most insurances don't cover birth control now anyway. It is being forced by Obamacare.
Of course insurance covers some preventative care, as I mentioned earlier. However, using many birth control methods is actually harmful to your health, and certainly does not prevent diseases. In fact, birth control pills, and certain other contraceptions, can cause serious diseases.
Also, just so you know, birth control pills that are prescribed for hormonal imbalances, or actual medical reasons, is covered by most insurance plans.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate/20#post_3456955
bioicarm, I'm not saying that women or men should not use birth control. It is up to each to decide that. What I am saying is that the government does not have the right to force a religious organization, that opposes birth control, to pay for birth control coverage. No one is forcing anyone to be a Catholic and abide by that religion's "rules". Likewise, no one is forcing anyone to work for the Catholic Church or enroll in their health care plans. If someone don't like it, then don't enroll (get your insurance on your own), or don't work for the Church. Government should not be involved. Most insurances don't cover birth control now anyway. It is being forced by Obamacare.
Of course insurance covers some preventative care, as I mentioned earlier. However, using many birth control methods is actually harmful to your health, and certainly does not prevent diseases. In fact, birth control pills, and certain other contraceptions, can cause serious diseases.
Also, just so you know, birth control pills that are prescribed for hormonal imbalances, or actual medical reasons, is covered by most insurance plans.
OK, so what's the difference between prescribing birth control pills for hormonal imbalances, and prescribing them for pregnancy prevention? So the church will deny their female employees from obtaining pills for hormone imbalances because they can also be used as contraceptives? Again hypocritical. Most insurance companiees SHOULD provide coverage for birth control pills. They provide it for ******. As far as "paying", they could exclude that option from the plan, and I'd guarantee you 100% that it wouldn't change the cost one dime. It has absolutely nothing to do about cost. Do you realize that this type of law has beenn in place in New York since 2002? Several religious-based universities provide health insurance with birth control -
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/02/07/420114/many-catholic-universities-hospitals-already-offer-contraception-as-part-of-their-health-insurance-plans/?mobile=nc
http://mykeystrokes.com/2012/02/08/many-catholic-universities-hospitals-already-cover-contraception-in-health-insurance-plans/
http://thenewstalkers.com/forum/topics/nation-s-largest-catholic-university-we-offer-a-prescription?page=2&commentId=6450411%3AComment%3A45590&x=1#6450411Comment45590
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate/20#post_3456953
You are confused. Reading Mother Jones will do that to you. This is part of 0bama care. Has NOTHING to do with federal funding.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2012/0130/Can-Obama-s-health-care-law-force-Catholics-to-support-birth-control
Ignore the source:
In December 2000, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission ruled that companies that provided prescription drugs to their employees but didn't provide birth control were in violation of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which prevents discrimination on the basis of sex. That opinion, which the George W. Bush administration did nothing to alter or withdraw when it took office the next month, is still in effect today—and because it relies on Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, it applies to all employers with 15 or more employees. Employers that don't offer prescription coverage or don't offer insurance at all are exempt, because they treat men and women equally—but under the EEOC's interpretation of the law, you can't offer other preventative care coverage without offering birth control coverage, too.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
The EEOC made a legal interpretation. You can bet that will be challenged now. In the case involved, the issue there is that the employer offered coverage for prescriptions, but excluded prescriptions for birth control. This was deemed discrimination against female employees.
What would be the solution then? The company could just drop prescription coverage altogether and then meet the requirement.
However, under Obamacare, birth control is not only required to be covered, but also that it is free.
By requiring this, you would also require religious hospitals to offer birth control services at their hospitals. And, in fact, abortion is also a form of birth control and don't think that religious organizations don't get that connection and what would come next if this whole thing flies.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate/20#post_3456970
Ignore the source:
In December 2000, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission ruled that companies that provided prescription drugs to their employees but didn't provide birth control were in violation of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which prevents discrimination on the basis of sex. That opinion, which the George W. Bush administration did nothing to alter or withdraw when it took office the next month, is still in effect today—and because it relies on Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, it applies to all employers with 15 or more employees. Employers that don't offer prescription coverage or don't offer insurance at all are exempt, because they treat men and women equally—but under the EEOC's interpretation of the law, you can't offer other preventative care coverage without offering birth control coverage, too.
This is completely untrue... Just google the Conscience Clause...
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
The argument they are taxpayer funded is a bogus argument. Many businesses have received taxpayer funded stimulus and subsidies. Yet these groups received waivers from the administration. How is this any different? Why can they not also recieve a waiver just like the thousands of other institutions?
Darth (don't look behind the curtain) Tang
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Also, the sexism argument is bogus as well, since the insurance does not cover vasectomy operations either unless in life threatening situations.
Darth (do your homework) Tang
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
A life threatening need for a vasectomy? LOL
While the Catholic agencies do receive some government funding, a good amt of funding also comes from the Catholic Church itself, and from donations, fund drives, etc. These orgs are not for profit businesses but mostly charities that help support the needy. Do you really want to say that because they get government funding that they must do what the government insists on pertaining to benefits offered in health plans or close down the service? Really??
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Tin foil hat time
One solution would be for the Catholic church to quit offering health insurance at it's non church holdings. If the government can create a situation where enough major employers follow suit you don't suppose that would help the leftists make the case for marxist medicine do you :)
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
All I'm saying is they're making a mountain out of a mole hill. If these Catholic organizations delved deeper into their current health plans, I'd bet you money there's some 'option' that violates the tenets of their religious beliefs. I have a list of the basic and most popular coverages on my health plan, but when you have a particular health issue and contact your provider, you'd be amazed of what other 'hidden' things are covered. Granted the coverage is limited, but they cover it all the same. The cost argument is insignificant at best. They're making this major issue simply because contraceptives are an OPTION. No one is forcing them to use that option. Statistics show that a high percentage of Catholic women use birth control and contraceptives, even one's working at these church-run hospitals and other businesses. What the Catholic church is saying is we don't want to have that option available on our insurance plan, but if our Catholic employees want to violate the tenets of the church and use those devices on their own volition, we don't care as long as it's on their nickel. See the hypocrisy in that statement?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate/20#post_3457150
All I'm saying is they're making a mountain out of a mole hill. If these Catholic organizations delved deeper into their current health plans, I'd bet you money there's some 'option' that violates the tenets of their religious beliefs. I have a list of the basic and most popular coverages on my health plan, but when you have a particular health issue and contact your provider, you'd be amazed of what other 'hidden' things are covered. Granted the coverage is limited, but they cover it all the same. The cost argument is insignificant at best. They're making this major issue simply because contraceptives are an OPTION. No one is forcing them to use that option. Statistics show that a high percentage of Catholic women use birth control and contraceptives, even one's working at these church-run hospitals and other businesses. What the Catholic church is saying is we don't want to have that option available on our insurance plan, but if our Catholic employees want to violate the tenets of the church and use those devices on their own volition, we don't care as long as it's on their nickel. See the hypocrisy in that statement?
Where did the Catholic church say it was Ok if Catholics used birth control?
 
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