Catholics vs. Abortion vs. Obama's mandate...

theclemsonkid

theclemsonkid

Member
First i'll preface this with the fact I am a practicing Methodist. So please spare me the "your atheist views don't matter" responses. The Catholic Church is up in arms because the Obama administration wants to mandate that employers provide birth control as an option in their health care plan. The funny part, is that in a national survey, 64% of Catholic women agree with Obama, and 52% of men agree as well. This brings me to the question:
Do religious values and standards change throughout time, or is it something that is steadfast through and through regardless of how much different the world is from when the "rules" were written?
This could go for a lot of things, from religion, to the constitution, to medicine, etc, etc. What is your opinion?
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
It is ironic, that the Democrats run around screaming separation of church and state. But have no problem with the state telling the church what to do...
Some trumped up poll, is not ironic...
 
theclemsonkid

theclemsonkid

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by stdreb27 http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456473
It is ironic, that the Democrats run around screaming separation of church and state. But have no problem with the state telling the church what to do...
Some trumped up poll, is not ironic...
The poll was actually done by a conservative website think tank. But that is beyond the point. It's not so much politics as it is the fact that people change over time, and religion tends not to. So how will religion ever keep up in the long haul if it's not willing to change with its congregations? I know it's a slippery slope...
 
beaslbob

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
bottom line is that when government provides heath care. The goverment dictates your life.
If we don't repeal the health care bill this is just the tip of the iceberg.
These are all things people need to decide for themselves. In order to do that government must get out of forcing you to buy a private good to begin with.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456452
The Catholic Church is up in arms because the Obama administration wants to mandate that employers provide birth control as an option in their health care plan.
Do religious values and standards change throughout time, or is it something that is steadfast through and through regardless of how much different the world is from when the "rules" were written?
This could go for a lot of things, from religion, to the constitution, to medicine, etc, etc. What is your opinion?
The Catholic Church is up in arms because the Obama Adm wants to require the Catholic Church to provide free birth control in the health plans the Catholic Church offers their employees. Not sure that your comments make that critical distinction.
The Catholic Church does not support birth control on the face of it, though, I don't really see the Church openly ostracizing anyone who does practice birth control. Yes, the Catholic Church has a right to their own religious beliefs, and laws within their church and that right should never in a million years be subverted by Obama Care.
No one is forced to be a Catholic, and no one is forced to work for the Catholic Church.
You want to place a wager on who will win this one?
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456452
Do religious values and standards change throughout time, or is it something that is steadfast through and through regardless of how much different the world is from when the "rules" were written?
This could go for a lot of things, from religion, to the constitution, to medicine, etc, etc. What is your opinion?
Not really going to say anything about religion, exactly - but I think that we as humans should be flexible and change with the times - and hold true to strong ethics, morals and some religious truths. I think that each individual person should stand up for what they personally believe in. However, I also don't suggest that each person live as complete individuals with no sense of what it means to be a community or a nation. No matter what a person says or does - someone isn't going to like it. That's just human nature -
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Congress SHALL make NO law regarding the establishment of religion or THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF
The government doesn't have the authority to force a recognized religion to violate the teaching of their faith. I personally think he stepped in it on this one. Even if 62% of Catholic women use birth control I'd be willing to bet a whole lot of them oppose a government mandate forcing their church to go against it's teachings.
 
ironeagle2006

ironeagle2006

Active Member
There is going to be a case REAL soon hitting the Courts also from the Military if I heard my brother right. A LT Colonel in the USAF is being Court Martialed for Speaking out against the Obama Adminstrations Policies. Now this Lt Colonel is a Chaplin a Catholic and a Member of the USAF and the Head Chaplin at my Brothers old base where he retired from. He goes how can I be a Catholic and dispense Birth Control when that goes in Direct Oppistion of EVERYTHING the CHurch Teaches me to do. He then goes I may be a US Military Member but I am also a Catholic Chapalin and a Priest. He has 4 tours in Afghanistan 2 in Iraq so he has been over in the combat zones.
 
D

dragonzim

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironeagle2006 http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456671
There is going to be a case REAL soon hitting the Courts also from the Military if I heard my brother right. A LT Colonel in the USAF is being Court Martialed for Speaking out against the Obama Adminstrations Policies. Now this Lt Colonel is a Chaplin a Catholic and a Member of the USAF and the Head Chaplin at my Brothers old base where he retired from. He goes how can I be a Catholic and dispense Birth Control when that goes in Direct Oppistion of EVERYTHING the CHurch Teaches me to do. He then goes I may be a US Military Member but I am also a Catholic Chapalin and a Priest. He has 4 tours in Afghanistan 2 in Iraq so he has been over in the combat zones.
Is this Chaplain the guy that is physically and personally giving out the condoms or birth controls pills? Wouldnt that be a medicdoctors job and not a Chaplain?
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonZim http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456726
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironeagle2006 http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456671
There is going to be a case REAL soon hitting the Courts also from the Military if I heard my brother right. A LT Colonel in the USAF is being Court Marshaled for Speaking out against the Obama Administration Policies. Now this Lt Colonel is a Chaplin a Catholic and a Member of the USAF and the Head Chaplin at my Brothers old base where he retired from. He goes how can I be a Catholic and dispense Birth Control when that goes in Direct Oppistion of EVERYTHING the CHurch Teaches me to do. He then goes I may be a US Military Member but I am also a Catholic Chapalin and a Priest. He has 4 tours in Afghanistan 2 in Iraq so he has been over in the combat zones.
Is this Chaplain the guy that is physically and personally giving out the condoms or birth controls pills? Wouldnt that be a medicdoctors job and not a Chaplain?
The priests were asked by the Catholic Hierarchy to openly show solidarity and speak out against the rules that the Obama Adm is proposing. Not that he is personally handing out birth control but he is stating that he is against the efforts being made by Obama Admin to force Catholic employers to dispense free birth control.
I believe that Ironeagle is saying that the person that may be court marshaled is under attack for speaking out against what is going on. That would be a dilemma. This Chaplin is in the military, and Obama is the Commander and Chief of the military. Do you openly bash your Commander and Chief? Not unless you want serious consequences. Just ask Gen McChrystal! lol
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
The law does not force the Catholic church or any other church that provides this healthcare to dispense birth control devices. The plan only provides the CAPABILITY to do so as a provision of the policy. The Catholic church makes it sound as if the Obama Regime is going to dump a large pallet of Trojans on every church doorstep across the country. I haven't seen the cost, but I highly doubt removing the birth control provision from the plan would make the premiums any cheaper. Contraceptives will be just another option listed on the plan. Wonder if this same policy includes pre-natal care as an option? If this healthcare plan is specificallly for Catholic church employees, how many nuns and priests do you know that would need that service provided to them?
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Where do you get that from??
The issue relates to a new rule on health care coverage requiring that all health plans provide for birth control coverage. That is not an optional thing but a requirement thing.
Nuns and priests are not the only ones working for the Catholic Church......not by a long shot.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456795
Where do you get that from??
The issue relates to a new rule on health care coverage requiring that all health plans provide for birth control coverage. That is not an optional thing but a requirement thing.
Nuns and priests are not the only ones working for the Catholic Church......not by a long shot.
You're right. It provides for birth control COVERAGE. It doesn't state that the Catholic church has to dispense or even use that provision in their health plan. It's just written into the plan whereby if someone DOES want to use it, they can. I have provisions in my healthcare plan that provide me access to assistance with drug rehab, alcoholism, smoking, and also pre-natal care. I don't do drugs, I don't smoke, I don't drink in excess, and I have no desire whatsoever to have anymore kids. My plan doesn't allow me to exclude these services. They are included for the benefit of anyone on the plan that DOES need these services. I doubt very seriously that if my plan administrator had those provision removed, my premiums would go down.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///t/390368/catholics-vs-abortion-vs-obamas-mandate#post_3456870
Uh, no. What part of "No one is forcing a Catholic employee to puchase contraceptives. The only thing this mandate does is provide them the opportunity to do so if they so desire." doesn't he understand?
Let me attempt to lead you out of your 0bamite fog. The Catholic church owns things like adoption agencies and hospitals. Under 0bama care they are mandated to offer these coverages to employees as part of their health insurance. It doesn't matter if their employee, many of who are not Catholic uses the services or not. Just forcing them to offer the services violates their religious beliefs. If 0bama would get his dam nose out of the air he would have seen this mess coming a mile away.
.
 
ironeagle2006

ironeagle2006

Active Member
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/army-silences-catholic-chaplains.htmlWhen the Commander in Chief of thru his APPTINTED Secratary of the US Army has to ORDER US Catholic Chapins NOT TO READ a LETER From Bishiops in the from teh Catholic Church in Direct Violation of teh 11st Amendment which BTE Cahplins are NOn Combatents and not Subject to the USCMJ if my brother told me right as they tend to be allowed to do what is needed to all faiths and alot of time are not fully trained into the ranks. They were Ordered not to read a Letter and it Violated their 1st amendment Rights and is being considered an UNLAWFUL ORDER by alot of them and under the USCMJ an Unlawful Order is NOT TO BE OBEYED.
See the Problem. By doing this Obama thru his Sec of the Army and the Letter was SIGNED BY ORDER OF THE PRESIDENT Obama SCREWED HIMSELF with the Boys in the Military. Also according to what my Brother told me all Services got a letter exactly LIKE THIS ONE. What does that tell you.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
There is no doubt in my mind that Obama will be back-peddling on this one. No way is the Catholic Church going to concede on this. I'm sure he will exempt religious orgs from this requirement. The Church will drop all of its health plans before it will include birth control in anything it is paying for. Let US taxpapers (Obamacare) pay for the health plans, because the Church won't be doing it.
Why should health plans include birth control anyway for goodness sake? Health care is supposed to cover illnesses, and disease preventing interventions. Most birth control methods actually are bad for your health. If people want to have sex, why is it the responsibility of an insurance agency (or employer) to make sure that you don't get pregnant? Insurances are already covering birthing and delivery, which, again, is not exactly a disease.
 
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