Cons to a DSB and wet/dry prefilter

petepaschall

petepaschall

Member
What are the cons to having a DSB? Guy at the LFS said he "hates" them. When I asked why, he said something about if I got popped by a bristleworm I'd understand. I wasn't real sure what he was talking about, but it didn't give me any clue as to the disadvantages of a DSB. Second question - what exactly should I be using for a prefilter for a wet/dry?
Pete
 
wamp

wamp

Active Member
The only con that comes to mind is cost. I would fins a new LFS..
There are other drawbacks. The biggest being cost and another being loss of tank space. You loose 6 or so inches of the bottom.
The Pros far outweigh the cons... No to mention, a bristle work can be in rock and crushed coral just as easy as sand.
 
T

thomas712

Guest
Popped by a bristle worm :) LOL :p Your LFS person needs a good pop now and again.
First IMO bristle worms are good for a reef tank, unless they get to be 8 inches or more.
IMO one of the worst things that can happen to your DSB is the death of the infauna responsible for slowly sifting the sand in the upper inch of the bed. This would cause a hindering of the process of filtering the nutrients that would otherwise build up and cause a nutrient sink.
Hardening of the substrate due to your chemistry being off. Precipitation of execss calcium ions could cause your substrate to harden building up anoxic regions and releasing hydrogen sulfide, which many say don't worry about, I'm not convinced.
Desturbing a DSB is never a good idea, ie stirring, punching holes in it...you know.
Still no one can tell me that they have had a deep sand bed for more than 5 years, without having to replace it.
These are not necessarily cons but things you do not want to happen in a DSB.
I use filter floss that they cut by the foot at my LFS, place it in the drip plate above my bioballs. Change every week or when it turns light brown. This will help to prevent buildup of solids on the bio balls which should be cleaned at least twice a year depending on your routine feeding, mainanence..etc..
Thomas
 
cincyreefer

cincyreefer

Active Member
Well stated Thomas! And good idea with the floss, but unfortunately I am too lazy to change it every week... :(
 
T

thomas712

Guest
Kip - nobody seems to want to talk about it. Even the good Dr. Ron had his crash after what 4 to 4 1/2 years. No one seems to have had one for much more than 5 year for some reason.. I would like to know why? What is it they say about the miracle mud that it need to be replaced every year? or so?.
Have I had one for 5 years or more. nope
Do I have any hard core evidence. nope
Have I read it more than a few times. yep
Even seen it discussed on more than one board.
Then whenever I ask if anyone has had one for more than 5 years I never get an answer. Could be a natural life cycle who knows. Guess some of us will find out in a few years.
Who you a smart alick....nahhhh :p
Thomas
 
jlem

jlem

Active Member
I want to talk about it
I think that as natural and self sufficient people try to make their tanks with regards to LS, DSB, Refugium and anything else we can think of, the fact still remains that it is a closed system. Because it is a closed system conditions will gradualy decline over time no matter how capable your natural filtration is unless you physically remove more waste than your system can handle. So even though a DSB may run well for a couple years eventually it will become overloaded and crash. Like Thomas said, I have no scientific proof of this and it is just how I feel. Now I guess if you had a 125 gallon tank with some live rock, A DSB and a very light bioload with lots of skimming I guess that it may be able to sustain it's bioload for many years but I guess then that your DSB would not be used for it's purpose because there would not be a high enough bioload and who wants a sparse reef anyways.:D:
 
petepaschall

petepaschall

Member
Interesting... I'm not too sure about the above-mentioned LFS anyway - they seem a little snobby to me.
About the DSB - how exactly do you change it out if/when it crashes? Would that require cycling the tank again due to loss of established bio filtration?
 
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thomas712

Guest
I've still got some reading to do but it appears that Rob Toonen has had a DSB for 16 years, just found out, first that I have heard of. I would like to know more about that system. Found a good debate on this subject but still researching it.
Thomas
 
lemonshark

lemonshark

Member
How about using a DSB in your sump?
I would rather not use a DSB on the display tank. On my display tank, I use 2 or 3" and in my sump I use 5" and planning to go to 6".
It would be easier to replace the sand in the sump. IMO
 
chuckularone

chuckularone

Member

Originally posted by Kipass4130
what controls the amounts of bacteria in the ocean's reef?

The answer to this is, other bacteria (And other predatory life forms)
In nature if something grows out of proportion to it's niche, something else will grow to an adequate strength to keep it in check. Either that or, if there are no predators, it starts to die off from malnutrition and/or starvation. That would end up being a "crash" in a pocket ecosystem like a tank.
A sandbed simply isn't diverse enough to survive forever. I don't think that there can be any rule as to how long one will last, but I believe that the bigger and more diverse your ecosystem, the longer it will survive.
Kip, you've mentioned in the past that you like to swap sand with other reefers. I personally think that that might be one way of keeping your sandbed healthy and it's a practice I intend to start as soon as I can.
 
petepaschall

petepaschall

Member
Nice read. Makes me reconsider putting a DSB in the display, and just set one up in the sump. It'd be a lot easier to change out if need be (as someone mentioned in an earlier post). Any thoughts on this approach?
 
cincyreefer

cincyreefer

Active Member
what controls the amounts of bacteria in the ocean's reef?
One thing I always try to remember about how the ocean differs greatly from a tank is the volume of water. There is so much water in the ocean that it would be almost impossible to have enough bio-load to even get trace amounts of amm, trites, or trates, naturally occuring that is. There are obviously some amounts of nutrients for algae to grow on in the ocean, but it would be very different than in an aquarium. I am still a believer in a couple inch sand bed and doing small water changes every week or two.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
My previous tank was a 55 with a 3" sand bed that was going well for about 12 years until my wife (ex-wife) poured bleach into it.
I can understand some of the current theories about old tank syndrome. ie. heavy metal accumulating in the sand bed and being released during a low-PH period. My only problem with that theory is that Old Tank Syndrome seems to afflict all types of systems equally and not just DSB tanks.
My current sand bed has been around for almost 3 years. I don't expect to see it decline in a few years. Time is the ultimate test though.
Thomas and I have a friendly disagreement with bio-balls and, well, his tank looks nicer than mine, there's a lot to be said for that ;) I believe Bio-balls detract from the Nitrate reducing ability of a DSB.
I'm opposed to Filter floss. I believe it traps the larvae of the sand bed infauna and decreases their reproduction rate as well as removing a lot of food that the corals could benefit from. But then again, I don't have crystal clear water, but I do have a thriving sand bed and what corals I do have grow unnaturally fast given my dismal VHO lighting.
Guy
 
petepaschall

petepaschall

Member
I'd like to get BangGuy's and Thomas' perspective on Bio-Balls, since they have a friendly disagreement (and anyone else who cares to chip in). The same guy at the LFS that said he hates DSB's said to take the Bio-Balls out of the wet/dry and throw them away. I was/am leaning toward doing that. What do you guys think?
Pete
 
T

thomas712

Guest
Lets keep it friendly and use your search button.
type in the words "bio balls" and then under user name "Thomas712" then "Bang Guy" after your finished with me.
Read and injest to your hearts content. Also use the word Wet/dry then our names. Have a ball.
Each means has an end. Now if I could afford a 900 gal fuge I would not hesitate to do so, I'd just do it a little different and hook it up to a nano :D
Point is we do things differently and are happy with the way we do it, and respect each others way. Perhaps your way will be different too.
Heck I know a person who cycles a tank with Mollies for God sake :D ......just kidding Bob :p smile big smile :D
Thomas
 
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thomas712

Guest
Guess thats hard to answer. If 10 of us had a 3" DSB in the main and a remote one to boot, since every system is different then we are talking about to many veriables here to say how long yours would last over mine or the next persons.
I just don't know :(
Thomas
 
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