Consumption rates in larger systems?

D

dennis210

Guest
210 g display with 40 g sump
5" DSB - 235 lbs LR - chaeto in sump - skimming - running carbon
85 coral placements (30 are either SPS or LPS)
temp 79.8 average, pH - 8.3, NH3 NO2 NO3 all zero, SG 1.0265, SAL 36,
Calcium 440 - 460, Alk 180 - 200, and Mg 1350. Usually use 2 to 2.5 gallons top off RO / week.
Over a weeks time Calcium drops to 400 - 410 range, Alk drops to 110 - 120 range, and Mg drops to 1200 - 1250 range. I have dosed system since Oct 2005 with Reef Complete, Turbo Calcium, and Superbuffer dKH on a weekly basis. I am now trying to drip Kalkwasser.
After first week dripping at 2 tspn/gal rate levels still fell. Today to reset to base I added 1 Tblsn Mg, 9 Tblspn Superbuffer dKH, 3 Tblspn Turbo Calcium, and 5 caps Reef Complete. Levels now back up to where I keep them.
I will drip Kalk dailly this week instead of every other day. Can you mix at a stronger level than the recomended 2 tspn/gal max mix rate? Trying to hold system more level throughout the week.
Thanks in advance for any help
Dennis
 
veni vidi vici

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by Dennis210
http:///forum/post/2541742
I will drip Kalk dailly this week instead of every other day. Can you mix at a stronger level than the recomended 2 tspn/gal max mix rate? Trying to hold system more level throughout the week.
Thanks in advance for any help
Dennis
Look into mixing vinegar into limewater solution.From what i understand the vinegar allows higher saturation but with a possible drawback.
 
candycane

candycane

Active Member
I would just say that 1.80 to 2.00 is rather low for alkalinity. Especially in a tank that is dosed that much with that much stuff in it. Then again, I am not responsible for anything that happens due to recommendations because the tank has wayyyyyy to many variations. Like the sand bed is REALLY deep and could have a tremendous amount of sulphur build up or calcium carbonate build up. Good luck though and be carefull. That tanks is REALLY highly stocked. Take any advice at your own risk.
 
sh00tist

sh00tist

Member
You should drip kalk everyday to keep your levels constant. Many have their kalk dripping through their ATO as do I. With a system that large you should seriously consider a calcium reactor though you may still have to drip kalk to keep your levels up. One thing that may help you get more kalk into the system is using a fan over your sump to increase evaporation,in addition as another person suggested you may benefit from adding vinegar to your kalk though it may not be necessary. You should try and do some research with regard to reef chemistry so you can understand exactly what we are trying to accomplish by dripping kalk as well as using it to its maximum advantage. Dosing all of those highly expensive supplements is simply not the answer. If you are going to hand dose you may as well look up some DIY 2 part such as 'Randys',you can make it for pennys.
 
D

dennis210

Guest
Okay I am going to try dripping Kalk daily instead of every other day. Mg will be dosed at 1/2 tsp every other day. Will see where I am the end of this week. The actual question was can the kalk be mixed at greater than 2 tspn / gallon rate? Or will it merely precipitate out over that ratio? I know I need a ATO and a calcium reactor, but waiting to decide on replumbing for new sump and having more drilling done for closed loop water returns instead of multiple powerheads in the display.
Dennis
 
mcbdz

mcbdz

Active Member
This may be totally off topic, sorry, but why is your evaporation so low. My 55gal has to be toped off 2/3 gal a day. Are you using glass top?
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by Dennis210
http:///forum/post/2543098
The actual question was can the kalk be mixed at greater than 2 tspn / gallon rate?
Cold RO/DI water can hold about 2.5 teaspoons of lime. Once it's saturated the rest will just fall harmlessly to the bottom of the container.
Vinegar will do 2 things, it will allow more lime to be dissolved and the Acetate will feed bacteria and provide the hydroxide with additional CO2.
You can also dose a slurry first thing in the morning if the PH is low. If your PH stays at 8.3 all the time then I don't recommend a slurry.
 
D

dennis210

Guest
Thanks Bang Guy, So I can mix at 2 TBLSP instead of 2 TSPN. I was wondering. Can you tell me about how much white vinegar to use? I am only mixing one gallon of Kalk at a time, as everything I read says to use as soon as possible after mixing. And yes I only have to top off about 2.5 gallons a week as I have glass tops on display as well as on sump. pH doesn't seem to swing in my tank as others mention, 8.3 or 8.4 every time I check (of coarse I haven't checked it from after 10 at night and before 8 in the morning) during normal hours.
Also will addition of vinegar cuase any foaming action to occur, if so I will mix in a bucket and then pour into glass jug.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by Dennis210
http:///forum/post/2543599
Can you tell me about how much white vinegar to use?
...
Also will addition of vinegar cuase any foaming action to occur, if so I will mix in a bucket and then pour into glass jug.
Vinegar won't cause the limewater to foam.
I would start with 10ml per gallon of limewater to start and go up from there. Keep in mind that Acetate is like candy to bacteria so if you start to see Cyano or Dino then back off of the Vinegar.
 
D

dennis210

Guest
Okay paramaters as follows: BASE LINE
SG SAL MG NH3 NO2 NO3 ALK CA pH Temp
1.0265 36 1350 0 0 0 200 450 8.3 79.5
After first week adding Kalk (1 g H2O / 2 tspn) every other day
1.0265 36 1200 0 0 0 120 410 8.2 79.8
Added
MG 3 tspn
Turbo Calcium 3 Tblspn
Superbuffer dKH 9 Tblspn
Reef Complete 5 capfuls
moved to
1.0265 36 1350 0 0 0 200 440 8.3 79.8
After second week dripping Kalk (1 g H20 / 2.5 tspn) daily & adding 1 tspn Mg every other day readings went to:
1.0265 36 1360 0 0 0 120 380 8.1 79.5
Added
MG 0
Turbo Calcium 3 Tblspn
Superbuffer dKH 10 Tblspn
Reef Complete 10 capfuls
moved to
1.0265 36 1360 0 0 0 200 440 8.3 79.5
Looks like dripping Kalk made no difference. So will try mixing 1 gal H2O, 10 ml vinegar, and 2.5 Tblspn Kalk; daily & adding the 1 tspn Mg every other day
& see if next week I still have to add what has become normal. Corals are growing well, but trying to get more even numbers without week end being this low. I thought that was what kalk was supposed to do. It's beginning to look like I need a Calcium Reactor, but really don't want to hook up something I know nothing about.
 
sh00tist

sh00tist

Member
dripping kalk will not increase your calcium levels it will only maintain them. You must first get your CA up to the desired level then start dripping the kalk. Even with the kalk dripping depending on your coral load you may still have to supplement. That is why I suggested adding a fan to increase evaporation allowing you to drip more kalk into the system keeping your levels constant. Its a trial and error thing and may take a month or better to figure out. Also you should avoid rapidly changing your levels. For instance dont dump 6 tsp of turbo CA in your tank and then test,do it over a few days so it isnt such a strain on your tender very sensitive tank inhabitants,low calcium wont kill them,changing the levels drastically very well might. You would really benefit from doing some reef chemistry reading,once you understand what you are chemically trying to accomplish it is a lot easier to make it so. A lot of the concepts are a bit difficult to get your brain around but once you understand it you can fix it. Dont stress about getting it perfect the first time,every single tank is different so there really isnt one simple solution only a box of methods and tools you have to tinker with for your situation.
 
D

dennis210

Guest
dripping kalk will not increase your calcium levels it will only maintain them. You must first get your CA up to the desired level then start dripping the kalk.
Well with base line at 440 Ca and 200 ALK that is up in normal and what I am trying to maintain. Dripping kalk daily at 1400 ml should be puuting equal amounts Ca and Alk into system. Yet weekly levels always drop about the same. That is why I was going to try Bang Guy's idea of adding 10 ml vinegar to RO water and thusly be able to allow same volume to supersaturate
or carry more kalk in suspension. Obviously dripping at the normal 2 tspn / gallon wasn't cutting it.
Also you should avoid rapidly changing your levels. For instance dont dump 6 tsp of turbo CA in your tank and then test,do it over a few days so it isnt such a strain on your tender very sensitive tank inhabitants,low calcium wont kill them,changing the levels drastically very well might.
Additions on weekends are added over the entire day (12 hours) and done slowly. The system is almost 3 years up and running. The problem was figuring out Consumption rate with a mature system with growing SPS population. Obviously the weekly addition of 9 - 10 Tblspn of Superbuffer,
3 Tblspn of Turbo Calcium, 3 Tspn Mg, and 5 caps of Reef Complete is what is being sucked out by growth. So far with only 2 weeks of dripping Kalk the additions are the same as when no Kalk was dripped. Was trying to keep system more level throughout the week. As stated I will try to drip The Kalk I mixed last night (vinegar added & 2Tblspn / g) and see if this helps cut down next weeks addition. If not I may have to go to testing and adding on Wednesday and Saturday instead on just Saturday.
As far as changing things too fast - it's easy to tell. If you add too fast and "burn the corals they slime all over, as well as retract. Once you have done it you know not to add to fast. Also changing a system with over 200 gallons of water in it reguires addition of larger amount of supplements than smaller systems. Going slowly for a 55g is much different than going slowly on a system of this size. By adding over the coarse of the entire day I haven't shocked and burned system for over 2 years! Corals are growing and healthy - just demanding more addatives at this point in the systems life.
 
sh00tist

sh00tist

Member
You really should look into a calcium reactor,the startup cost may be steep but compared to what you are spending in chemicals it would pay for itself in no time,though you may still have to drip kalk to keep your levels up. You need to drip your kalk through your auto top off,this will let you drip the maximum amount of kalk,adding fans will increase the amount as well. There is a very large mariculture facility less than an hour from my home that I go to now and then. They are keeping around 30,000 gallons and struggle to maintain calcium levels. Their solution is to keep the temperature in the facility very high(around 80),they also have fans blowing across tanks,sumps,ect..anywhere there is open water there are fans. They strive for maxmum evaporation from their tanks simply so they can drip as much kalk as possible,the owner told me they top off about 500 gallons a day and wish it could be more. Adding vinegar to your limewater isnt going to increase the solubility of the lime a whole lot,maybe 10%. getting more lime water into your system will help with the calcium issues but may not cure it,in addition your ph may climb too much to put anymore in and you will have to start testing magnesium levels as they will decline,like I said its trial and error.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by sh00tist
http:///forum/post/2552437
dripping kalk will not increase your calcium levels it will only maintain them.

I hear this from hobbiests a lot. I don't believe it's an accurate statement. If 1 gallon of limewater can maintain Calcium then 1.5 gallons per day is going to raise Calcium.
 
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